Hunting With My Less Accurate Rifles

[HuntTalk Freak]

 

[KB_]

oh the good ol days. Blame the "inaccurate" gun for you missing that deer 50 yards away. lol

 

[Michael Case]

View attachment 192290

Chunk in a little Zig Zigler and oh we need a trifecta ----- thoughts?

 

[mtmuley]

So. Mt Muley,

"I can do all that" you say

If you are looking at a set of deer or elk tracks, in light dust/dirt,,,just barely enough to see a set of indiivdual tracks from just one animal,,how can you determine if those the tracks are a buck or a doe or a cow elk from a bull. Forget size,,,there are big does and cow elk and small bucks and bulls. Forget urine location relative to hoof marks. Forget presence of fawn or calf elk tracks,,,forget dew clawws, forget how blunt the tips are,,,that shows age not sex, how, just by looking at a set of tracks of one individual deer or elk in just light dust/dirt can you dertermine sex and be 100% sure. Riddle me this and i am not joking. I am talking about serious bush craft.

And to other hunters,,if you know,,,do not spill the beans. Mt. Muley has claimed he can "Do all that" Let him prove it

MR

Have fun with yourself. You are a fricken badass. I'm not worthy. mtmuley

 

[PsRpOiGrRiAtM]

With the proliferation of his posts on page 1 at any given time, and his overall verboseness, methinks that anyone unlucky enough to ride with him would find their windows locked because he truly believes that everyone enjoys the smell of his farts as much as he does.

 

[Michael Case]

With the proliferation of his posts on page 1 at any given time, and his overall verboseness, methinks that anyone unlucky enough to ride with him would find their windows locked because he truly believes that everyone enjoys the smell of his farts as much as he does.

Beginning to sound like a school yard in the second grade!
Believe I'll just slide out of here, and just watch Randy's videos

 

[Mustangs Rule]

My friend what will be gained? I've been in Construction my entire life and everyone that came looking for a job that said "I can do it All" we never hired. Back when I started a man who was a Craftsman by European standards took me under his wing and taught me on Saturdays on my own time. He said I have no time to waste on someone that only wanted enough Knowledge to go somewhere else for a buck more an hour. I'm of a great age and I am taught everyday something by someone or a book even a Utube video.
I m h o --- It's not ever a good day for me to belabor the obvious. I find most people show themselves for what they are eventually.
But just know, my campfire is always open and warm for anyone to share, that shows themselves to be friendly.

I was in residential construction for most of my life. A tough buisness. I often had a man ask for a job as a carpenter and say, "I can do it all".

That is a very bold statement.

Then I would ask him,,,about cutting rafters,,,about building stairs,,, building rake walls, hanging doors, cross sighting, doing interior trim, crown mounding and cutting cope joints. Some guys had answers,,,others had none and just began looking down at thier feet. That is how I am.

In 5 to ten minutes I knew who I was dealing wth.

The best carpenter I ever hired told me straight up that he just got out of jail and that he could do it all. He was a single dad, raising two young boys on his own. Mom was on drugs. He behavior in jail was excellent. He wanted out to get his sons back and out of a foster home.

He had the personality of a junk yard dog,,,real mean baddass, but he really could "Do it all".

We got along really well, even though he broke one of my biggest rules for employees. He just could not get to work on time most days.

One son was 6 the other 8,,, being a "Mom" every morning took that extra time. He was a good father to his sons. I let that tardiness go.

I gave him raise after raise,,,bonuses too.

He never was a friendly person,,,rather a brash know it all,,,but he did know it all.

Again,,,best carpenter I ever hired. He calls me up to say hello every year around Xmas. His kids are all grown up and stay out of trouble. He says thanks for my giving him a new start in life . He kinds grumbles out the "thank you". He was a "real good baddass". So am I.

MR

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Have fun with yourself. You are a fricken badass. I'm not worthy. mtmuley

When you look at a man standing up, unless he is overweight, his hips will be narrower and his shoulders wider. A woman, by virtue of her needing wide hips for her birth canal will be the opposite and she has narrow shoulders.



Transferring that to 4 legged deer, antelope and elk, the straddle,,,the distance between the hind feet, of a doe, or cow elk will be wider than her front feet straddle. So when she is in a walking gait her hind feet will land on, but just to the outside of her front feet,,,about a ¼ “ for deer,, 3/8” for elk.



This will be the opposite for bucks and bulls. Their hind feet will land on their front feet and be just to the inside. Impossible to miss this once you know about it. Only works for a walking gait and is most clear in light snow or dirt.



Felines when running prefer the transverse gallop, canines prefer the rotary gallop.



With felines the front of the intermediate foot pad is always bi lobed,,,with canines in is single lobed.



Mustelids use the side by side trot gait.



The intermediate pad in grizzlies is much straighter and as is the toe pattern and the toes are much fatter with no space between them.



The kit fox, a type of gray fox has semi-retractable claws. It climbs trees to eat bird eggs.



I could go on….

 

[Michael Case]

I was in residential construction for most of my life. A tough buisness. I often had a man ask for a job as a carpenter and say, "I can do it all".

That is a very bold statement.

Then I would ask him,,,about cutting rafters,,,about building stairs,,, building rake walls, hanging doors, cross sighting, doing interior trim, crown mounding and cutting cope joints. Some guys had answers,,,others had none and just began looking down at thier feet. That is how I am.

In 5 to ten minutes I knew who I was dealing wth.

The best carpenter I ever hired told me straight up that he just got out of jail and that he could do it all. He was a single dad, raising two young boys on his own. Mom was on drugs. He behavior in jail was excellent. He wanted out to get his sons back and out of a foster home.

He had the personality of a junk yard dog,,,real mean baddass, but he really could "Do it all".

We got along really well, even though he broke one of my biggest rules for employees. He just could not get to work on time most days.

One son was 6 the other 8,,, being a "Mom" every morning took that extra time. He was a good father to his sons. I let that tardiness go.

I gave him raise after raise,,,bonuses too.

He never was a friendly person,,,rather a brash know it all,,,but he did know it all.

Again,,,best carpenter I ever hired. He calls me up to say hello every year around Xmas. His kids are all grown up and stay out of trouble. He says thanks for my giving him a new start in life . He kinds grumbles out the "thank you". He was a "real good baddass". So am I.

MR

I don't personally know you so I don't judge anyone.
It truly matters not. But in my years of observation of people I have found some "truisms"
Most that blow there own horn So loudly are "A Legend in there own mind"

There's a word for that "Narcissist"

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I don't personally know you so I don't judge anyone.
It truly matters not. But in my years of observation of people I have found some "truisms"
Most that blow there own horn So loudly are "A Legend in there own mind"

There's a word for that "Narcissist"

Thank you,,,very politely delivered,,,,worth my reflection, but as you said you do not know me.



I can so often misrepresent myself



I was at the shooting range the other day,,,some young guys drove up,,,,in a pick up so huge, so high, so wide, it made me ache for an old step side 4x4 Chevy Apache, or a Bronco.



The rifle cases they brought out were so huge too. I mean really!!!!



Then their rifles came out, so long, with the attachment on the barrel for recoil suppression. The scopes seemed like they were from Stars Wars.



Then they drove,,,out,,,way out ,,,,,and set up targets. They were getting ready for deer and elk season they said.



I of course waited to shoot,,and waited and waited and when they did, the noise, even with plugs and muffs was so penetrating.



As shooters do, they walked around looked at what others,,,myself too were shooting. A look of almost disdain came over one young guys face looking at my old rifles and simple scopes.



It did not bother me. I would not to trade for a second.



It is almost impossible to find a carpenter who can hang a door anymore. Most doors are pre-hung anyway, and they do a lousy job of it at that at the factory



Stain grade woodwork,,,hardly anymore,,,,paint grade only and sloppy open joints, and fill the open cracks with putty, lots of putty.



The last painting contractor I knew from way back, said a case or two of caulk was all he needed for a big house at one time. Now he said he uses a dozen of cases of caulk. The skill of carpentry has so shrunk



I cannot recall the exact numbers, but believe at the peak there was 15,000,000 hunters in the USA. Now there are 11,000,000. If I am wrong please correct me. But the numbers are plummeting and so will the funding for all our wildlife programs.



Absolutely nobody has any idea where or how to replace that lost amount of revenue,,,and as more and more baby boomers like myself age out it will get worse.



I know where that money will come from,,,,at least where the offers will come from. Private hunting businesses, wanting to lease public land. And from extraction industries that will want resources and wish to break down wilderness status to get them.



And they will promise to the hunters,,,more access, and more access. Of course the extraction industries will get that access too.



I looked at these young hunters, they seemed so disconnected, like hunting for them was some kind of of video game,,,,viewed afar through their very complex rifle scopes.



I wondered,,,would they ever want to bother learn all the close up bush craft skills we have talked about here.



Learning those skills and relearning them every hunt is what allows that connection to the earth and animals to develop.



Shooting some animals 1000 yards away steals those opportunities.



I wonder,,,no I doubt that, those young men I saw the other day would ever have the appreciation for earth and game animals to be able to resist the temptations that will surely be coming to compromise our land and wildlife.



Some of those lessons can only be learned by picking up a deer’s or elk’s droppings and feeling how warm or cold they are with our bare hands.

 

[Michael Case]

You Sir. Have risen far up on my Totem, Full marks.
We of an age, sometimes seems like from another planet, stand in awe at "The younger Generation" So much piss and vinegar, but little else.
I remember going to a store ( won't mention names) and asking for the isle were I could find "C" select white pine. I got the 100 mile stare, the reply was Sir, we have "white wood" I don't know what kind your asking for. Oh how times change

Sometimes we can be a bit "full of ourselves"
In this strange world.

One day perhaps we can share a camp fire and think on the days of "Sanity"

 

[Mustangs Rule]

You Sir. Have risen far up on my Totem, Full marks.
We of an age, sometimes seems like from another planet, stand in awe at "The younger Generation" So much piss and vinegar, but little else.
I remember going to a store ( won't mention names) and asking for the isle were I could find "C" select white pine. I got the 100 mile stare, the reply was Sir, we have "white wood" I don't know what kind your asking for. Oh how times change

Sometimes we can be a bit "full of ourselves"
In this strange world.

One day perhaps we can share a camp fire and think on the days of "Sanity"

I took my first hunters ed class in 1962. Not only were there WW2 vets there, but even a few WW1 vets. It was the WW1 vets that actually began the idea for the Pittman Robertson Fedaral Aid to Wildlife Act of 1937.

They came back from the War in Europe and saw that nothing was left of wild land or wild animals. That experinece led them to begin the restoration of American Wildlife. Not many people know this.

I grew up with genuine American heros, they taught me how to hunt and shoot. I found thier rifles so endearing, 1903 custom springfields, Custom 98 mauser broght back from the war, Savage 99's, Model 70's Model 94"s and marlin 336's.

True I can get cranky, surly, much like the Clint Eastwood Koeran war vet Character in "Grand Torino"

Where I get humble is easy to say. When I see a hunter adhering to tradtional hunting styles,,,wanting to stalk, read game sign, pick up the drippings to feel how fresh they are warms my old hunters heart.

I have no issue with a scopeed rifle,,,just as long as it can fit in a tradional saddle scabard with grace. Many of the scopes i see with all thise big turret adjusring knobs irriratate me no end.

Now and then I see one used in a movie where some sniper is fiddling with them before killing a human being. I change the channel. The last thing the WW1 and WW2 vets I had as mentors wanted was a rifle with a military appearence.

They wanted beauruful rifles, they were hunting, not at war.

What really drives me to the point of ready to go beserk is seeing some guy hunting with a semi auto AR 15.

That about makes me want to thow up.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I took my first hunters ed class in 1962. Not only were there WW2 vets there, but even a few WW1 vets. It was the WW1 vets that actually began the idea for the Pittman Robertson Fedaral Aid to Wildlife Act of 1937.

They came back from the War in Europe and saw that nothing was left of wild land or wild animals. That experinece led them to begin the restoration of American Wildlife. Not many people know this.

I grew up with genuine American heros, they taught me how to hunt and shoot. I found thier rifles so endearing, 1903 custom springfields, Custom 98 mauser broght back from the war, Savage 99's, Model 70's Model 94"s and marlin 336's.

True I can get cranky, surly, much like the Clint Eastwood Koeran war vet Character in "Grand Torino"

Where I get humble is easy to say. When I see a hunter adhering to tradtional hunting styles,,,wanting to stalk, read game sign, pick up the drippings to feel how fresh they are warms my old hunters heart.

I have no issue with a scopeed rifle,,,just as long as it can fit in a tradional saddle scabard with grace. Many of the scopes i see with all thise big turret adjusring knobs irriratate me no end.

Now and then I see one used in a movie where some sniper is fiddling with them before killing a human being. I change the channel. The last thing the WW1 and WW2 vets I had as mentors wanted was a rifle with a military appearence.

They wanted beauruful rifles, they were hunting, not at war.

What really drives me to the point of ready to go beserk is seeing some guy hunting with a semi auto AR 15.

That about makes me want to thow up.

Meant to say Droppings not Drippings above. my eyes get tired at this time of the night.

 

[JLS]

Wow. Not a good wow, but wow.

 

[Michael Case]

For over 44 years I had a O3-A3 never shot it, was Nickel chromed, had a "Sniper Stock" I believe it was a parade piece, bore and barrel perfect. My Son Lusted for it his entire life, gave it to him at Deer camp couple years ago for Christmas. A grown man 48 years old crying will move you.

When I was in H.S. ROTC I felt privileged to be chosen for the Honor Guard, Carried a Garand, but once in a while we Carried a bolt Rifle.
Have to watch calling a Rifle a Gun, My Father was Navy he said Boy a "Gun" was on a Ship, not your shoulder,

Black rifles, not my cup of coffee either, I prefer Surgical, not spray and pray.

We of the "Ancient" old fogies definitely See differently but I think a bit more Clearly.

Seeing were our world is today saddens me, our Marines saddled by beaurocrats and loosing there lives because of fools.

Today I stand for my Uncle, 24 year Marine, Vietnam Veteran. 85 years on this Earth, many rivers crossed.

I have been with Patriot Guard Riders since 2006 an each time we do a "mission" for "One of The Fallen" it reminds me everyday there is ALWAYS going to be a Cost for our Country to stay FREE.

But Lord I wish we didn't have to Fathom so many fools in the process.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

For over 44 years I had a O3-A3 never shot it, was Nickel chromed, had a "Sniper Stock" I believe it was a parade piece, bore and barrel perfect. My Son Lusted for it his entire life, gave it to him at Deer camp couple years ago for Christmas. A grown man 48 years old crying will move you.

When I was in H.S. ROTC I felt privileged to be chosen for the Honor Guard, Carried a Garand, but once in a while we Carried a bolt Rifle.
Have to watch calling a Rifle a Gun, My Father was Navy he said Boy a "Gun" was on a Ship, not your shoulder,

Black rifles, not my cup of coffee either, I prefer Surgical, not spray and pray.

We of the "Ancient" old fogies definitely See differently but I think a bit more Clearly.

Seeing were our world is today saddens me, our Marines saddled by beaurocrats and loosing there lives because of fools.

Today I stand for my Uncle, 24 year Marine, Vietnam Veteran. 85 years on this Earth, many rivers crossed.

I have been with Patriot Guard Riders since 2006 an each time we do a "mission" for "One of The Fallen" it reminds me everyday there is ALWAYS going to be a Cost for our Country to stay FREE.

But Lord I wish we didn't have to Fathom so many fools in the process.

I really miss my hunting, fishing and shooting partner. We moved far away from each other in retirement. We have known each other for 35 years.

We were also both residential building contractors too. What made us different from most carpenters was that we served apprenticeships.



I served mine under men who served in WW2. Most were combat veterans who went to trade school after the war, paid for by the GI bill. These men were my trade school. Such great men. Almost never a war story.



My friend, when a mid teen, would have his dad drop him off on the other side of the mountains, with a .22, a knife,,,,and a cheap backpack,, in a week he would come home.



After high school he did a lot of things, worked for the forest service for a while,,,and he did “something else” for a bunch of years. I will get to that in a moment.



At some point he decided to enter a formal carpenter trade apprenticeship program. He applied, and was told he was too old. They had an age limit which he passed by several years.



When asked why he did not apply sooner, he said that he had volunteered to join the Army Rangers during the Vietnam War. After basic training he went to “Jump School” became a paratrooper.



He served two tours in Vietnam as Deep Recon Ranger.



The Trade School waved the age requirement for him and let him in the program.



We lived in what I can only call the “Last of the Best of Old California” with varied biomes due to elevations changes, the back country streams were filled with landlocked native steelheads,,,some 2 ft long, hoping for enough rain to return home to the ocean. The elk and antelope had been restored enough for some tags,,which in time we both got, and two deer tags were available. We both would go for a regular rifle tag and one muzzleloader tag.



We hunted in the back country, on the plains and right over looking the ocean on National Forest land. We used single shot centerfires, vintage calibers, fine old bolt action rifles and as out eyes got older,,we relunctantly used scopes,,,simple low power scopes,,, we still spent a lot of time crawling. Being on our knees kept us humble,,,connected to the earth. It felt right,,,a good way to make our meat.



With one very cool exception, we both declined camo clothing favoring old wool pants with plaid flannel or wool shirts. He once said that if regulations allowed, he would have worn such clothing when crawling around the jungles of Vietnam.



We created an active shooting course in Nat. Forest land. Rather like a golf course. We did this discreetly for 15 years. We watched for any hikers, or folks walking their dogs. We never left a trace of what we did.



At some point our ranger district was the last one in a huge National Forest that still allowed target shooting. All the other National Forests had banned target shooting. Our district ranger was pro-shooting,,,but soon all the “shooting fools” came to us.



The usual trash got worse,,,and worse and worse. Fires were started by military steel jacketed bullets from AK’s. More and more fall hunters looked like an invading Army armed with Semi-auto AR’s dressed to the max in military style camo.



Perception is reality.



The last straw was when some city guys,,,created a long range course where my friend and I had our discreet active course. We fired only bout a dozen shots each time. If we saw a car park on the road we stopped.



Anyway, the long range clowns violated the no motor vehicle rule, cut the fence down. Drove all over some really sweet mountain meadows,,,rutted the heck out of them. Set up,,,and left huge target platforms and to get the distance they wanted,,,they shot over some shallow valleys where people walked. It was not dangerous as they could still see where their bullet were hitting,,,but it really scared some locals.



These clowns of course dressed in camo,,,and shot both bolt actions and AR’s.



Enough locals got so mad and scared that they organized, paid for lawyers and that was the end of target shooting in that last ranger district.



As shooters,,,my friend and I lamented the loss of Public land shooting ourselves,,,( We however did have private land to shoot on, though not as good as out old course),,,,,but as residents of a that mountain community, we were both greatly relieved that shooting was banned,,,end of the endless trash,,,there was a huge cleanup of former shooting areas,,,and the justified/proven fear of bullet caused wild fires was greatly reduced.

He and I planned on getting together this summer but with Covid that will not happen. We now live 11 hours apart


MR

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Ohh and I have to add this. My friend has an alomost 90% success rate for elk on public lands. His technique?. He usually sits in one well scouted out place all season. If cold he even has a small fire right in front of him. He just sits there and waits with patience. Looks, listens and has shot elk just feet away from him. His latest rifle,,,a custom single shot 30-40 Krag carbine.

As a rule he has no interest in military rifles or military calibers,,he had enough of them, but with the 30-40 Krag, he made an exception.

 

[Michael Case]

Ohh and I have to add this. My friend has an alomost 90% success rate for elk on public lands. His technique?. He usually sits in one well scouted out place all season. If cold he even has a small fire right in front of him. He just sits there and waits with patience. Looks, listens and has shot elk just feet away from him. His latest rifle,,,a custom single shot 30-40 Krag carbine.

As a rule he has no interest in military rifles or military calibers,,he had enough of them, but with the 30-40 Krag, he made an exception.

Sounds like his training payed off.
I am a student of history and study much of the "Ancients" way of life, much to learn. Sadly most don't care anymore.

I was privileged to have been a Teacher for the Associated General Contactors school from 1994-1997 in addition to working during the day. I had first year and forth year. Forth year being the "Construction Management College Degree" the people we had were from across the board. But one common denominator was love of hunting and fishing. When there was a hiccup, we talked outdoor activities and how they related to Construction, most principle's being similar.

I find now most of the problems we encounter hunting and fishing are from "Don't care, don't give a Dam people.

Sad how far "Backward" we have come.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Sounds like his training payed off.
I am a student of history and study much of the "Ancients" way of life, much to learn. Sadly most don't care anymore.

I was privileged to have been a Teacher for the Associated General Contactors school from 1994-1997 in addition to working during the day. I had first year and forth year. Forth year being the "Construction Management College Degree" the people we had were from across the board. But one common denominator was love of hunting and fishing. When there was a hiccup, we talked outdoor activities and how they related to Construction, most principle's being similar.

I find now most of the problems we encounter hunting and fishing are from "Don't care, don't give a Dam people.

Sad how far "Backward" we have come.

Great to hear from you again Michael,

I just,,as in just finshed building what will be my last home,,,"A little House on the Prairie" with the view of the mountains right out my window.

The siding is from the sawmiill right up the road, native lumber. I made all the cabinets, interior doors, case, window trim, base, even stop from native lumber.

I lived with it in my home till it was at 12 to 13% moisture content. I slumbered with my lumber all last winter.

Having fishing and hunting as a common interset can be a bonding credit or nowadays it can be a source of untimate division. So many science related critical isssues of our time connect with those activities,,,as do politcs.

When I was just in my late teens I was able to take advantage of President Eisenhowers' national emergemcy education act of 1958. I earned a degree in Bio/biochem and paid just $200 total tuiition for four years of education. The Biology was perfect match for the farm boy I was,,,,dairy farming family on mom's side

The other side of my family were builders....I followed that till I was 50 then went back to school for five years to bring my science fully up to date and earn my education credential. I then taught science also contruction tech at the high school level.

I get my lumber locally and also wish to get all my protien locally,,,deer, elk, game birds grouse quail wild turkey, trout, char and salmon,,,lumber and protien, all within a half hours drive..I am what is called an Eco-Hunter,,,1 in 10 of hunters

Back to hunting as a common interest being a source of division.

I can relate to Andy Russell Canadian author,,,at fisrs a hunter, then guide, then conservationist.

He tried over and over warn the sportsman. mainly hunters about what was comming...mostly to no avail.

Hunters in America are now so swollen with both new, old, even ancient misinformation, from special interest groups that they are virtually incapable of sorting out variables (a critical skilll for carpenters) and making the appropriate respones to issues likde climate change, predators, land use etc. etc.

And the stakes are crirically high,,,,and along the way,,,,most hunters can get lost,,,and lose the very deep connection that the outdoors and hunting can give us. They get incredible simulation that technology tempts us with

We cannot "gadget our way to that connection" iquite the contrary.

An interseting insight into why too many hunters hunt comes from a 1953 story by Jack O'Connor titled "Santiago and the Lady"

Men can have too much "death in their hearts" They hunt not to just feed thier bodies,,,or families or even thier spirits, but they hunt to feed that need for killing, that death in thier heart.

This is one on my most self-reflective of all Cactus Jacks stories.

To use carpenter terms,,,he hit the nail right on the head,,,then drove it cleanly with as few hammer strokes as possible,,,,without banging up the wood.

It is natural for a man to have death in his heart, from ancientness men fight death with death, they killed to protect and feed. A woman fights death with life.

We hunters, must be very careful of our killing and where it takes us. Many primal people separated thier arrows and spears in two groups, one for war, the other for hunting.

The post I start are about rifles for hunting, fine vintage tools that can feed us and our families.

I so enjoy being afield with my fine old sporting rifles,,,the kind my WW2hunting mentors preferred.They wanted nothing to do with war weapons" They were done with that.

My old rifles help to protect my hunters heart,,,they are so accurate in that regard. Long range rifle are so inaccurate for such up close and personal duties.

Musings from me an old hunter, who knows any season could be my last,,,,and best.

Time to go out and split more firewood,,,have four cords split and stacked so far.,,,,,,,all by hand of course, sledge, wedge, maul and also my grandfathers ax too. I hold the ax that was once held by the same arms that held me.

I don't need no stinkin wood splitter.

Winter will be here so soon

MR

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Ohh I can't resist adding this

recall theold Zen saying. "Chop wood, carry water"

Mine is "Chop wood, carry quaretrs" as long as I can.