Hunters of Color podcast

[QuazyQuinton]

Just finished listening to the podcast this evening. Worth my time spent. Thank you, @Big Fin.

I'm following up looking for a better understanding. You were all really careful in how you talked about the hunter killed in Pennsylvania, which I assume is related to the unresolved legal case. I'm trying to understand if this was a story where the guy was hunting and someone took exception to a black man hunting and killed him for that reason, or was the hunting trip actually a part of a scheme someone used to get the guy into the woods so they could commit a premeditated crime? Either way it's a terrible outcome and a great loss for his family and friends, for sure. It won't bring the guy back, but it makes a difference whether this is a "racism in hunting" incident or simply a scumbag using "hunting" to accomplish his nefarious deed. Am I correct to infer that this is perhaps an open question in the ongoing investigation, and there is not a clear answer at this time?

I thought your guest, Alex, did a good job of making a thoughtful point that for the family and friends of the hunter who was killed, the answer to that question may be secondary to their reflexive response that if black people go hunting and don't come home, then they simply don't want to go hunting or spend time in the outdoors. It doesn't matter to them if it was or wasn't a race-related action; they're not going into the woods where that might happen to them. So I'm kicking that aspect around in my mind....

QQ

 

[GlockZ]

I listened to this very podcast yesterday, I was a bit surprised as to the content though. I mainly hunt alone, and over the years I've come across hunters from all walks of life, religious beliefs and ethnicities, BS'd with them, helped a few recover an animal, swapped some good hunting info, etc.. But have never thought that there was any behind the scenes issues going on.

 

[fleabagmatt]

But have never thought that there was any behind the scenes issues going on.

I think that was part of @Big Fin's point. A lot of us don't have to think about stuff like that. For some people, there is no getting away from having to think about those things and it's important to remember that.

 

[Big Fin]

Just finished listening to the podcast this evening. Worth my time spent. Thank you, @Big Fin.

I'm following up looking for a better understanding. You were all really careful in how you talked about the hunter killed in Pennsylvania, which I assume is related to the unresolved legal case. I'm trying to understand if this was a story where the guy was hunting and someone took exception to a black man hunting and killed him for that reason, or was the hunting trip actually a part of a scheme someone used to get the guy into the woods so they could commit a premeditated crime? Either way it's a terrible outcome and a great loss for his family and friends, for sure. It won't bring the guy back, but it makes a difference whether this is a "racism in hunting" incident or simply a scumbag using "hunting" to accomplish his nefarious deed. Am I correct to infer that this is perhaps an open question in the ongoing investigation, and there is not a clear answer at this time?

I thought your guest, Alex, did a good job of making a thoughtful point that for the family and friends of the hunter who was killed, the answer to that question may be secondary to their reflexive response that if black people go hunting and don't come home, then they simply don't want to go hunting or spend time in the outdoors. It doesn't matter to them if it was or wasn't a race-related action; they're not going into the woods where that might happen to them. So I'm kicking that aspect around in my mind....

QQ

I'm not sure the status of the investigation and the evidence. That podcast was recorded almost three weeks ago.

Lydia and Alex wanted to make sure we only talked about what was known and made no claims or assumptions about what is not known. The goal was to make my audience aware of the bigger issue of how the color of a hunter's skin does influence what their cumulative lifetime experience will be in the public woods or as a hunter. To your point, you are correct in that they don't want to draw conclusions that it was "racism in hunting" and that this is an open question that the investigation will hopefully uncover.

I think your point that I bolded is a very important takeaway. No matter the motives of the shooting or the result of the investigation, it only cements the feeling that the woods/hunting are not a safe place for black people. And what does that do for the hunting community we hope to have?

I wish it was different. I have written on my whiteboard in my office, "Beware the false comforts of ignorance." When it comes to this topic, my life has allowed me to stay ignorant. Just a reality of where I have lived most of my life and how social circles get formed. Not anyone's fault, just a reality. So, I want to be less ignorant.

Anyone who has listened to other podcasts I've done about a black hunter who has become a friend, Arlando, and the experience he had while bear hunting in Montana, knows that it has become painfully obvious to me that people of color do not have the same outdoor experience that I can have. Rather than comfortably compartmentalize this as some isolated topic far removed from my mind, I'm actively seeking a better understanding of why a person of color would feel unsafe out hunting or on public lands.

When Arlando told me the following statement in October, I was dumbfounded. Arlando's grandmother told him, "Why do you go hunting? Sometimes black people never came back from a hunt." The more I explore the issue, the more I come to understand that these are not isolated instances my mind would like think they are and that Arlando's grandmother's concerns are based on her real life experiences.

@fleabagmatt mentioned, geographically and socially, I'll likely never be witness to something like that and because of my white male reality, I'll likely never be subjected to that. I've been afforded the luxury of not having to think about it. So, I have to go out and explore the topic to be exposed to it.

The more I explore, the more I find it a common experience among people of color, whether black, indigenous, Asian, Hispanic/Latino, or other. I did a sport show last week in Seattle. Every day of that show I had at least one person of color, some days multiple, come to me and thank me for discussing the topic. They all have their own similar stories, but they don't share them publicly. It is because of Arlando's experience, and the stories I get via email and personal interaction, that I've not shied away from the topic. That comes with risks, so I tread carefully, knowing my life experience could easily cause me to say something stupid, not out of malice or intent, but rather out of ignorance. That is a risk worth taking.

Thanks for listening. I surely don't have it figured out. I have said many times, that I feel I was given the biggest head start in life by being born a white male in America. I've always felt that way. I don't feel guilty about it. Nothing I can do about that. My life experiences have allowed me to be ignorant of what other life experiences are. Having the feeling that I've been blessed presses me to be less ignorant of how the outdoor opportunity was different for me than those with XX chromosome or those born with a different pigmentation.

Given how many hunters of color reach out to me when I do discuss these topics on our platforms, I am amazed at how many folks interested in hunting don't participate or do so with a lot of concern, all because of the color of their skin. I feel that in the small world, the hunting world, where most my time is spent, the overwhelming majority of hunters want the experience to be the same for everyone, regardless of color or background. We just don't get exposed to the events or notions of how different the reality can be. I would bet almost everyone on Hunt Talk wants a hunting community where every hunter from every background feels welcome and safe. I hope that by discussing the topics and using my learning journey as an example, we might help toward that end.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

"Beware the false comforts of ignorance."

Great podcast, and a great quote!

I really appreciated your comment about being the person in the position that can change it, combined with your own admission of past ignorance.

Honest to goodness I think this is the productive middle ground that so many people on both sides of many social issues are missing.

I can think of a half a dozen things where I want to say, "Yeah I used to say or do that, because I didn't know any better, but then someone pointed out my ignorance and now I don't do or say or think that anymore. I'm not yelling at you or saying your a terrible person I'm just trying to help educated you as I was educated."

Things won't change unless the majority does, I really appreciate you doing this yourself and recognizing it in the hunting space.

I have slightly less white hair but likely but probably more ignorance. Again thanks for bring up this topic on your platform.

 

[huntergirl_19]

Very nice episode @Big Fin! Thank you for providing space to discuss the issues that we face in hunting, and in convincing others from our communities that learning to hunt is worthwhile. I'll definitely be looking into opportunities to volunteer with Hunters of Color.

 

[Panda Bear]

The more I explore, the more I find it a common experience among people of color, whether black, indigenous, Asian, Hispanic/Latino, or other. I did a sport show last week in Seattle. Every day of that show I had at least one person of color, some days multiple, come to me and thank me for discussing the topic. They all have their own similar stories, but they don't share them publicly. It is because of Arlando's experience, and the stories I get via email and personal interaction, that I've not shied away from the topic. That comes with risks, so I tread carefully, knowing my life experience could easily cause me to say something stupid, not out of malice or intent, but rather out of ignorance. That is a risk worth taking.

Thank you

The breadth and depth of this problem is not visible to most and I understand that. However; not so much in the North, and not even in the West, but when you go East, here in Canada, the "noise" becomes very load and constant. Death threats, sterilization remarks, rape comments and attempted assaults, sometimes even to children--followed by laughter and "who care, she/they is/are "just " an Indian.

In recent years, the ONLINE threats and comments have reached a new high AND fever pitch, and yes, it has even happened on this forum.

You try to ignore them and come up with some explanation to the children when they ask "why are they being so mean ? " But, admittedly it gets old and you feel hurt and of course angry.

I mentioned this on a prior thread on this forum. I, at one time was ask to help guide hunters on sheep hunts. The sex and Indian abuse and comments were outlandish AND threatening. I no longer guide .

Some members here who I have know for many years will remember when it got so bad I had to involve the RCMP and FBI because of death threats to myself and family ----

I want to say that most members here have been very welcoming and it has been and is appreciated, thank you

 

[Big Fin]

In recent years, the ONLINE threats and comments have reached a new high AND fever pitch, and yes, it has even happened on this forum.

If it happens on this forum, the person will be gone immediately. My apologies for any ignorant asses who might do such here on Hunt Talk. There is a zero tolerance on this forum.

 

[Addicting]

I'm not sure the status of the investigation and the evidence. That podcast was recorded almost three weeks ago.

Lydia and Alex wanted to make sure we only talked about what was known and made no claims or assumptions about what is not known. The goal was to make my audience aware of the bigger issue of how the color of a hunter's skin does influence what their cumulative lifetime experience will be in the public woods or as a hunter. To your point, you are correct in that they don't want to draw conclusions that it was "racism in hunting" and that this is an open question that the investigation will hopefully uncover.

I think your point that I bolded is a very important takeaway. No matter the motives of the shooting or the result of the investigation, it only cements the feeling that the woods/hunting are not a safe place for black people. And what does that do for the hunting community we hope to have?

I wish it was different. I have written on my whiteboard in my office, "Beware the false comforts of ignorance." When it comes to this topic, my life has allowed me to stay ignorant. Just a reality of where I have lived most of my life and how social circles get formed. Not anyone's fault, just a reality. So, I want to be less ignorant.

Anyone who has listened to other podcasts I've done about a black hunter who has become a friend, Arlando, and the experience he had while bear hunting in Montana, knows that it has become painfully obvious to me that people of color do not have the same outdoor experience that I can have. Rather than comfortably compartmentalize this as some isolated topic far removed from my mind, I'm actively seeking a better understanding of why a person of color would feel unsafe out hunting or on public lands.

When Arlando told me the following statement in October, I was dumbfounded. Arlando's grandmother told him, "Why do you go hunting? Sometimes black people never came back from a hunt." The more I explore the issue, the more I come to understand that these are not isolated instances my mind would like think they are and that Arlando's grandmother's concerns are based on her real life experiences.

@fleabagmatt mentioned, geographically and socially, I'll likely never be witness to something like that and because of my white male reality, I'll likely never be subjected to that. I've been afforded the luxury of not having to think about it. So, I have to go out and explore the topic to be exposed to it.

The more I explore, the more I find it a common experience among people of color, whether black, indigenous, Asian, Hispanic/Latino, or other. I did a sport show last week in Seattle. Every day of that show I had at least one person of color, some days multiple, come to me and thank me for discussing the topic. They all have their own similar stories, but they don't share them publicly. It is because of Arlando's experience, and the stories I get via email and personal interaction, that I've not shied away from the topic. That comes with risks, so I tread carefully, knowing my life experience could easily cause me to say something stupid, not out of malice or intent, but rather out of ignorance. That is a risk worth taking.

Thanks for listening. I surely don't have it figured out. I have said many times, that I feel I was given the biggest head start in life by being born a white male in America. I've always felt that way. I don't feel guilty about it. Nothing I can do about that. My life experiences have allowed me to be ignorant of what other life experiences are. Having the feeling that I've been blessed presses me to be less ignorant of how the outdoor opportunity was different for me than those with XX chromosome or those born with a different pigmentation.

Given how many hunters of color reach out to me when I do discuss these topics on our platforms, I am amazed at how many folks interested in hunting don't participate or do so with a lot of concern, all because of the color of their skin. I feel that in the small world, the hunting world, where most my time is spent, the overwhelming majority of hunters want the experience to be the same for everyone, regardless of color or background. We just don't get exposed to the events or notions of how different the reality can be. I would bet almost everyone on Hunt Talk wants a hunting community where every hunter from every background feels welcome and safe. I hope that by discussing the topics and using my learning journey as an example, we might help toward that end.

I listened to this today and re-listened to the Arlando podcast.

I don’t like boxes, pesky boxes, that define us by race. After a minority President and now Vice President and a military career with all walks of life, anyone can truly achieve goals if they work hard no matter the box that is checked. I’ve seen so many successful minorities that I looked up to in my career. Not because of their box, but because of their professionalism and skills. So when the subject of race and inequality become a talking point I get agitated. If all those I’ve met along my journey made it, why can’t others. It just takes hard work and dedication.

This podcast made me reflect on that thought process. By the end, I realized it’s deeper than I was giving credit for. To my mind with the google machine options and answers were a click away. My simple mind didn’t really realize generational fears. Kids socialized to not think they didn’t have options.

Thanks @Big Fin

I’ve got some humble pie to chew on while I add this to my daily thought process.

 

[NR_Hunter]

I haven’t listened to the whole podcast yet, but whoever threatened Arlando on the mountain needs to be made persona non grata. Get them the hell out of the hunting community and even society as whole. Makes my blood boil.

If you see this thread, Arlando, NR_Hunter has your back if you’re ever MN.

 

[Hammsolo]

I spent time reading many articles after the episode. This makes me feel extremely sad. Please take the time to read articles from reputable resources, and open yourself up to deep questions and thoughts. This situation is VERY confusing and sad, red flags abound. I’ll resist sharing my current opinions and do more research.

 

[huntergirl_19]

I haven’t listened to the whole podcast yet, but whoever threatened Arlando on the mountain needs to be made persona non grata. Get them the hell out of the hunting community and even society as whole. Makes my blood boil.

If you see this thread, Arlando, NR_Hunter has your back if you’re ever MN.

My biggest questions after that episode were 1)is this hunter harassment and 2)if he'd called it in, would it have mattered or put him in a more dangerous situation (bc law enforcement)? I don't think there are any easy answers

 

[Panda Bear]

if he'd called it in, would it have mattered or put him in a more dangerous situation (bc law enforcement)? I don't think there are any easy answers

This is what so many, who are never confronted with the color/gender prejudices dont understand, simply because they are not confronted with this problem.

It is a natural reaction for a white male to not just say it, but to actually follow thru and complain to the authorities, AND to have their complaint taken seriously. This does not make white males wrong, they simply live in a different world. I have in the past shared things that I was confronted with when guiding and when I complained it was most times just dismissed, sometimes loss of job threatened because my "skin" was too thin. And in some cases after my complaint was dismissed, the abuse got worse. Some here are aware of the time the Outfitter had to find a white male guide to replace me, as the client would not go out with a female Indian. Sometimes, I honestly believe it is just ignorance or should I say lack of knowledge, more than meanness. At least we tell ourself that, as sometimes we wonder " Why in the world would he say that" or " I saw an Indain do ( whatever ) so --"they all do it".

I am not complaining, just explaining as I came to grips with this years ago AND almost every man on this forum has been very kind and welcoming --and I thank you !

My point was, we sometimes are not believed when we complain or "report" something. We are sometimes threatened and I am not talking "I am going to hit you" type threats, but vicious, nasty, scary threats.--------so as huntergirl 19 said --complaining does not always help, in fact in some cases it makes it worse.

Which explains my desire to be in the woods more than the city. Especially Ottawa right now

 

[A207X2]

Very interesting topic. I'll say this: I've honestly never given it any thought - but I'm a white male. Having been in the USAF, and flown missions with many "people of color", they were all just Air Force Blue to me. They had a job to do, and they did it. Just like I did. I never factored in if that person sitting next to me was black, white, yellow, brown, green, purple or any other color. They were all Air Force Blue.

If I came across a "hunter of color" in the field, I would not think twice about it. They are just another hunter out having a (hopefully) good day. But I've never thought about it through their eyes.

I'm thinking about it now....

 

[one ate E grain]

I just went and googled the news stories, and learned just about nothing, except that there were multiple people there and no one was arrested. With most of these high profile news stories involving race I wait to hear what the grand jury or justice department find. Attempts to paint a narrative only make me suspicious of motives.

I have to say though, as the dad of biracial kids I've never experienced anything but welcome from my hunting buddies and the other hunters we meet. Since they were old enough to walk, and even before, I've taken my kids out with me scouting, and on pack outs, camping, and later to go hunting themselves. Same at the range. Frankly with intermarriage being so common I'd be hard pressed to make assumptions about anyone's ethnicity. Maybe it's just a western thing.

It has nothing to do with politics either. My buds are conservative somewhere way over to the right of Genghis Khan. It's 2022 for gosh sake. Someone who doesn't take the rib meat or get all the neck meat, now maybe that's someone who gets side eye, but race?

 

[Hammsolo]

Good points. I agree it’s wise to wait for facts. Logical conclusions come slowly.

I think the lack of story and information is part of the story. I really would like to know the actual facts. How many shots? Locations? Range? Weapon? Other injuries? Injuries to shooter?

I think it’s always wise to remember our experience is our own. I wasn’t and won’t be there for others’ experience. I try to remind myself that all experiences are unique.

In SW Montana my buddy, from Belize, got completely different reactions from people when we were in our teens and early 20’s depending a ton of variables. Location, who he was with, activity… It was weird to watch and now think about.

I’m goin to watch this case closely, be slow to judgement, and then go from there.

 

[longbow51]

If we've learned anything this year, it's to wait for facts, which can be elusive. And Panda Bear, I am really sorry for how you were treated. All I know about Canada is from fishing in Alberta, and that your current PM seems to overreact a bit. My Native guide was a really nice guy.

 

[Dougfirtree]

I listened to this today and re-listened to the Arlando podcast.

I don’t like boxes, pesky boxes, that define us by race. After a minority President and now Vice President and a military career with all walks of life, anyone can truly achieve goals if they work hard no matter the box that is checked. I’ve seen so many successful minorities that I looked up to in my career. Not because of their box, but because of their professionalism and skills. So when the subject of race and inequality become a talking point I get agitated. If all those I’ve met along my journey made it, why can’t others. It just takes hard work and dedication.

This podcast made me reflect on that thought process. By the end, I realized it’s deeper than I was giving credit for. To my mind with the google machine options and answers were a click away. My simple mind didn’t really realize generational fears. Kids socialized to not think they didn’t have options.

Thanks @Big Fin

I’ve got some humble pie to chew on while I add this to my daily thought process.

I think it's a sign of the times that every time I hear someone say that new information, or a new perspective is causing them to re-think a previously held belief, I have the urge to salute them.

I look forward to listening to this podcast.

 

[Hammsolo]

I listened to this today and re-listened to the Arlando podcast.

I don’t like boxes, pesky boxes, that define us by race. After a minority President and now Vice President and a military career with all walks of life, anyone can truly achieve goals if they work hard no matter the box that is checked. I’ve seen so many successful minorities that I looked up to in my career. Not because of their box, but because of their professionalism and skills. So when the subject of race and inequality become a talking point I get agitated. If all those I’ve met along my journey made it, why can’t others. It just takes hard work and dedication.

This podcast made me reflect on that thought process. By the end, I realized it’s deeper than I was giving credit for. To my mind with the google machine options and answers were a click away. My simple mind didn’t really realize generational fears. Kids socialized to not think they didn’t have options.

Thanks @Big Fin

I’ve got some humble pie to chew on while I add this to my daily thought process.

I appreciate and respect your opinion. My Mom is a mid-west farmers daughter. My Grandfather was educated, and driven. He was able to sweep in during the depression, buy a large farm, start the first Twin Cities waste disposal service, and use that resource to feed the pigs. My mom and her siblings sorted through garbage for silverware and other surprises. She still has bags of them. He made a small fortune and became a Senator while coming from a middle class background. He had certain variables that put him in a situation to succeed. He, and my Mom believed in pulling the ol’ boot straps.

I have taught and coached for twenty years. Every day I educate students with tremendous advantages and disadvantages. The boots your born with drastically influence if you’ll be able to pull them up. Shoot, some kids come to my class without “boots.”

 

[np307]

Something I've found very strange has been a very selective form of racism that I've witnessed in the woods here. I've never seen/heard someone take issue with anyone in the woods who was black or Hispanic. We do, however, have a fairly significant population of Hmong people that hunt the woods I like to frequent and they have been maligned by more people than I can count. I've never witnessed them breaking any game laws or even inconsiderate and yet to hear some of these mouth-breathers they're the poachingest, nastiest people on the planet.