Here's why elk ranches should be illegal in every state
- Thread starter Ithaca 37
- Start date
BuzzH
Well-known member
Tom,
I got an idea...instead of importing an animal (red deer) which will alter the genetic purity to the detriment of a native N. American species (elk), which everyone with the exception of you knows will happen...maybe you could get yourself a passport and head over to Germany to hunt your red deer.
Then you can leave my elk alone and I'll be happy to tell you how great the red deer is you shot in its native habitat in Europe.
Also, you may be correct, the red deer may DO better here...they just dont belong here. Thats another biological reason to keep them out of N. America. I've heard that they rut longer and are more aggressive than elk. That would surely put a strain on rutting bull elk that cant afford any extra stresses. Clearly biologically detrimental to Native North American ELK.
Keep talking Tom, you're answering your own questions and proving my point more with each post.
Native wildlife needs to be kept genetically pure...and thats the only fact that matters.
One way to ensure that is to shut down every game farmer in the West...and I think that will happen. Thanks to lame arguments like yours, that process will only be sped up.
I got an idea...instead of importing an animal (red deer) which will alter the genetic purity to the detriment of a native N. American species (elk), which everyone with the exception of you knows will happen...maybe you could get yourself a passport and head over to Germany to hunt your red deer.
Then you can leave my elk alone and I'll be happy to tell you how great the red deer is you shot in its native habitat in Europe.
Also, you may be correct, the red deer may DO better here...they just dont belong here. Thats another biological reason to keep them out of N. America. I've heard that they rut longer and are more aggressive than elk. That would surely put a strain on rutting bull elk that cant afford any extra stresses. Clearly biologically detrimental to Native North American ELK.
Keep talking Tom, you're answering your own questions and proving my point more with each post.
Native wildlife needs to be kept genetically pure...and thats the only fact that matters.
One way to ensure that is to shut down every game farmer in the West...and I think that will happen. Thanks to lame arguments like yours, that process will only be sped up.
MarvB
Well-known member
Tom why on God's green earth you would want to hunt some European misfit with horns like Don King's hair is beyond me...that being said, if you want to do it you can...IN EUROPE....and if they (the uncleansed from overseas) wish to do the same the can come hear and shoot (if they are lucky) a true elk of our genre. Why fugg them BOTH up into some kind of crossbred mess?
There are LOTS of things that USED to inhabit the Western Hemi....doesn't mean that Noah needs to start issuing boarding passes to bring them all back...unbelievable.
There are LOTS of things that USED to inhabit the Western Hemi....doesn't mean that Noah needs to start issuing boarding passes to bring them all back...unbelievable.
Tom said:
It sounds like you are referring to the elk and red stag that you have seen in Texas. If the elk do not fare to well in Texas there is a reason for that...they do not belong there.
Unforunately our society has gotten away from the "Natural Selection" process. It was this process that got humans, elk, deer, red stag, etc. to where each species is today. Without human intervention each species is still in the process of bettering its gene pool by allowing the most fit to reproduce. Obviously humans are the only species that is getting away from this process. It's apparent that even our weak are given the opportunity to reproduce...
Tom, just so you know I've read on some other websites that huge "world record" rifle stag was completely tame and essentially a pet with a name and everything. No wonder some dork from Texas likes red deer so much; they're as wild as most critters down there.
Tom
New member
The first discovered Ft.Collins CWD was in wild deer in a research facility study. I was refering to the red stag and elk that I've seen in Texas. I don't think either one does not belong here though. I agree with the thought that red stags near Yellowstone is more of threat than far from Yellowstone. I'm trying to find out if the threat has any substance to it.
It seems like you would want to document the genes in your elk somehow, otherwise how would you know if you had a "mutant"? How many red stag genes are in Rocky Mountain elk on the Colorado test or the Canada test that were done? There ought to be some interesting data about those tests. That's what I've been asking about since the beginning of this thread.
It seems like you would want to document the genes in your elk somehow, otherwise how would you know if you had a "mutant"? How many red stag genes are in Rocky Mountain elk on the Colorado test or the Canada test that were done? There ought to be some interesting data about those tests. That's what I've been asking about since the beginning of this thread.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Tom,
You dont get it.
Why would an elk farmer want to "document the genes in his elk herd". They dont give a shit about the genetics of their elk. They dont give a shit about the native elk in the area around them. They dont give a shit about the sportsmen that hunt elk in the wild either.
They care about the bottom line...how cheaply can I get "elk" and how much can I sell my "elk" for.
Did you read about this whole Rammel deal? He sure has shown a lot of compassion and care for wild elk hasnt he? Freaking A-hole doesnt keep his fences up, his mutants get out, he has no record of what they are, how many got away. Then he has the nerve to blast the IGF and the Governor for taking care of HIS problem. HIS elk escaped into the wild...HE is the irresponsible landowner. He didnt properly run his business...he needs shut down.
I hope they fine the living shit out of the guy, confiscate all his elk, jerk his license, and immediately begin drafting a law to eliminate all game farms in Idaho. Rex Rammel probably just single-handedly ruined the game farm business in Idaho because of his arrogance...and I'm laughing about it.
You dont get it.
Why would an elk farmer want to "document the genes in his elk herd". They dont give a shit about the genetics of their elk. They dont give a shit about the native elk in the area around them. They dont give a shit about the sportsmen that hunt elk in the wild either.
They care about the bottom line...how cheaply can I get "elk" and how much can I sell my "elk" for.
Did you read about this whole Rammel deal? He sure has shown a lot of compassion and care for wild elk hasnt he? Freaking A-hole doesnt keep his fences up, his mutants get out, he has no record of what they are, how many got away. Then he has the nerve to blast the IGF and the Governor for taking care of HIS problem. HIS elk escaped into the wild...HE is the irresponsible landowner. He didnt properly run his business...he needs shut down.
I hope they fine the living shit out of the guy, confiscate all his elk, jerk his license, and immediately begin drafting a law to eliminate all game farms in Idaho. Rex Rammel probably just single-handedly ruined the game farm business in Idaho because of his arrogance...and I'm laughing about it.
MNHunter
Well-known member
Good post Buzz
Tom
New member
Its hard to tell if he's being railroaded out or really screwing up from what I've read here. I saw one elk farm when I hunted in Idaho, it was up north of Ceour d'Alene. They didn't have much space at all, different than what I see down here. Here the places are set up for hunting more than for meat and antlers, like the one place I saw in Idaho.
shoots-straight
Well-known member
Tom,
Your species needs to be crossed with the Ape, maybe you could start evolving into something with a brain.
You don't understand anything these guys tell you, and they shouldn't waste time on you. Just as you can't prove anything to a PETA groupie, logic doesnt apply, you argue on your gut feelings, and your preference to shoot livestock and call it hunting.
Tom, thanks for making my point for me! You can't comprehend anything you read.
Your species needs to be crossed with the Ape, maybe you could start evolving into something with a brain.
You don't understand anything these guys tell you, and they shouldn't waste time on you. Just as you can't prove anything to a PETA groupie, logic doesnt apply, you argue on your gut feelings, and your preference to shoot livestock and call it hunting.
Tom, thanks for making my point for me! You can't comprehend anything you read.
Tom
New member
Very good shootstraight, at least you realize its crossing, not mutation. That's a step toward some straight thinking. Keep it up.
Here's some crossbreed deer data. ... Davison (1979) observed 179 deer on the Columbian White-tailed Deer National Wildlife Refuge mainland.
"Nearly one-third (56) of the deer classified were thought to exhibit hybrid characteristics." p493 of Chapter 27, Pacific Northwest by TA Gavin, Prof. of Wildlife Sciences, Dept. of Natural Resources, Cornell in Whitetail Deer: Ecology and Management, LK Halls, editor, 1984, Wildlife Management Inst.
Here's some crossbreed deer data. ... Davison (1979) observed 179 deer on the Columbian White-tailed Deer National Wildlife Refuge mainland.
"Nearly one-third (56) of the deer classified were thought to exhibit hybrid characteristics." p493 of Chapter 27, Pacific Northwest by TA Gavin, Prof. of Wildlife Sciences, Dept. of Natural Resources, Cornell in Whitetail Deer: Ecology and Management, LK Halls, editor, 1984, Wildlife Management Inst.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Tom said:
....I'm afraid Tom's got you there SS.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
mtmiller said:So what's the score now?
...thought you weren't going to say mean things.
elkfarmer
New member
.
ok, let me say this. most breeders do care about the "genes". some guys keep a pure elk, while others do bring in some red deer genetics for antlers. now, i don't know the details but i am sure this guy didn't do anything delibertly to let all his elk go. people dont do that. the sky isn't falling so quit acting like it.
let me ask this, if we were to let 50 red deer go into the wild in the state of Colorado, what would happen in your opinion. i bet it would be like the mule deer and white tail. I saw one post that stated "27 hunting seasons and has never seen a cross". game farms get blamed unfairly for alot, mabey its time you guys give it a break.
Ithaca 37
New member
elkfarmer, Your lack of basic knowledge of genetics is another example of why all elk farms/ranches should be outlawed. What do you think would happen if you had a huge pen with a thousand purebred English Setters in it and you turned loose 50 purebred Springer Spaniels in it?
That's the problem with elk farms. Any fool can start one.
Tom
New member
Purebred Setters and Spaniels have papers showing that. What are the papers for a Rocky Mountain elk? Don't the pure elk advocates need some, if you want to maintain that kind of purity. Based on what is their any claim to purity and lack of purity? Buzz gave relevent behavioral examples to distinguish red stags from Rocky Mountain elk, but the posted article about the Canada test doesn't say anything about them for this cow that I've read.
Without any such behavioral changes exhibited in this cow, there's no lack of purity, at this point. What's the big deal about this Canada test? Especially since the Colorado test was negative. Reasonable minded people would like to have some evidence.
Without any such behavioral changes exhibited in this cow, there's no lack of purity, at this point. What's the big deal about this Canada test? Especially since the Colorado test was negative. Reasonable minded people would like to have some evidence.
Ithaca 37
New member
Tom, It seems to me our Rocky Mtn. elk would be "purebred" after 10,000 years of evolution. So would red deer. Introducing red deer genes at that point would be like mixing two purebred dog breeds.
