Caribou Gear

HB 505 - Elk Need Your Help

With all respect Ben, this is BS.

They need to be called out when they are doing nothing on the biggest attack Montana had ever seen on elk.

They need to hear it as does GG, FWP, and House F&G.

Just saying you’re doing something with no proof needs to be questioned.

I’m not saying ditch the membership but giving them a pass without so much as a question doesn’t fly.

But hey That’s just me.
I say this with all due respect, Tony, and to the others making similar comments. You are making assumptions when you say they (RMEF) are "doing nothing." You don't know what RMEF is doing or isn't doing on this or other bills.

I can assure you they are engaged. As much as I am not on the Board, I have had many calls with them on many of these issues during the legislative session. I had a call today. I had a call yesterday. I had a call on Sunday. I had plenty of calls over the last two months. These weren't social visits, rather calls to talk about these issues; calls to talk about what I am hearing from the Hunt Talk crowd and the rest of my audience.

To the others who are making RMEF comments or wondering about the RMEF approach, I provide this insight in hopes we can do as Ben suggests and quit firing inward.

I am not privy to all they are doing, as I am not on the Board and I no longer chair the Committee that deals with these issues. I do know they are engaged and they are engaging with the people who will be voting on these issues and those who are advising policy makers on these issues, and not just in Montana and not just at state levels.

Some say RMEF's behind the scenes legislative strategy is due to the influence of donors or outfitters. Donors concerns have no influence on how RMEF does their work. No single donor of RMEF has even .1% financial impact on RMEF. Too many diversified revenue sources to be influenced in that way. Outfitters total financial contribution to RMEF is very small. Concern over outfitter support has no impact on how RMEF makes these decisions. Or at least not when I was on the Board and I was chair of the Governmental Affairs Committee of a member of the Finance Committee. I suspect that has not changed.

If folks want to start another thread on how RMEF does their work compared to other groups, start a thread on that. It comes down to a difference in approach that each organization uses to exercise their influence.

I can tell you how it worked when I was on the Board and when I chaired the Committee in charge of these legislative and policy issues.

The Board's Governmental Affairs Committee met once a month to discuss the issues that were Federal policy and policy from the dozen+ elk states. Highly qualified staff brought the issues to the Committee for discussion. Board members used feedback from members to add to the topics brought forth by the staff. Staff did not have the permission to "go it alone" without approval from this committee. If some issues were deemed super important, I had the power to convene a special meeting of that Committee. Otherwise it was dealt with via the standard protocols of the organization.

There was one staff person at RMEF who dealt with these issues and they were surely maxed out to cover Federal issues and all the state issues. That person left last fall, a very inopportune time, given so many state legislatures meet in the winter. Last I knew, they were interviewing finalists for the position. This is a person you hire with extensive background in policy at both the Federal and State levels, so filling that position is not as simple as posting a notice on Monster.com. Unfortunate timing, for sure.

As far as the debate about using behind the scenes versus airing things out in public, that was a big lesson for me. When I came to the Board, I was a "take it to the people" and a "light them up" kind of guy. My expectations were much like is being expected from the comments I am reading here.

I got to see first-hand how behind the scenes could be far more effective in the long-term. I got to see how a more deliberate and strategic approach allowed invitation to participate no matter which party was in power and no matter what policy was at play. I saw how long-term relationships could be leveraged in ways I was not expecting. It was a big learning curve for me, but I came to accept the value, in spite of my inherent, "Kick 'em when you can" approach.

The number of issues RMEF helped with behind the scenes in the six years I was on the Board and the four years I chaired that Committee was remarkable. Yet, RMEF never made a single mention of any of them. Doing so runs the risk of jeopardizing key relationship and causing some to no longer trust an organization if that org operates with too much public flair.

There is surely a great need for the public grassroots rallying that we saw yesterday. It is invaluable to have groups that excel at that, also.

Does this approach make RMEF less nimble than some would like? Sure it does. I got all kinds of flack for the delays caused by formal protocols when I was on the Board. We are reading comments here reflecting such.

Does this more formal approach cause RMEF to be deliberate on the long-term mission and prevent some missteps they had made previously when they did not have the formal protocols on how to engage in these issues? Definitely. And when they do weigh in, it has a lot of impact.

To compare these legislative issues that pop up like gophers on a spring prairie to a well-funded ballot-box-biology initiative on wolves is like comparing apples and bike tires.

I'm no longer on the Board, so I can't confirm exactly how things happen at RMEF two years later. Being looped in on many discussions and having them seek my opinions, I do think it is still operating very much like it was when I was on the board and this Committee.

I do know they are following these issues. I know who they are talking to. They will continue to operate behind the scenes very effectively.

RMEF's strategy to not be the loud public critic on these legislative issues was a source of criticism when I was on the Board. I'll admit, it is frustrating to get hammered by good folks who disagree with that approach, as you know they mean well in their criticism. Yet, there is absolute value in having a well-respected organization fill that role while other groups work on the public grassroots effort.

Some will never be satisfied by that explanation I provided. I get that, as even while on the Board it took me some time to see the value in having groups doing both. I also get that no amount of explanation will likely change the minds of many who are critical of the RMEF approach when they want more of the public grassroots approach.

If folks want to start another thread to debate the merits of vocal grassroots pressure versus behind the scenes work or what mix/blend of the two is helpful, I am happy to chime in on another thread about that topic.

For now, this thread is about HB 505.
 
Fair enough Randy. I have seen and been assured RMEF has helped before and now. It would help me as a member feel something was being done if it wasn’t always super secret.

I will move on with HB 505 and start another thread about RMEF actions after the session. Right now we don’t need the distraction.

Thanks for you and all the HT folks that were there.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I say this with all due respect, Tony, and to the others making similar comments. You are making assumptions when you say they (RMEF) are "doing nothing." You don't know what RMEF is doing or isn't doing on this or other bills.

I can assure you they are engaged. As much as I am not on the Board, I have had many calls with them on many of these issues during the legislative session. I had a call today. I had a call yesterday. I had a call on Sunday. I had plenty of calls over the last two months. These weren't social visits, rather calls to talk about these issues; calls to talk about what I am hearing from the Hunt Talk crowd and the rest of my audience.

To the others who are making RMEF comments or wondering about the RMEF approach, I provide this insight in hopes we can do as Ben suggests and quit firing inward.

I am not privy to all they are doing, as I am not on the Board and I no longer chair the Committee that deals with these issues. I do know they are engaged and they are engaging with the people who will be voting on these issues and those who are advising policy makers on these issues, and not just in Montana and not just at state levels.

Some say RMEF's behind the scenes legislative strategy is due to the influence of donors or outfitters. Donors concerns have no influence on how RMEF does their work. No single donor of RMEF has even .1% financial impact on RMEF. Too many diversified revenue sources to be influenced in that way. Outfitters total financial contribution to RMEF is very small. Concern over outfitter support has no impact on how RMEF makes these decisions. Or at least not when I was on the Board and I was chair of the Governmental Affairs Committee of a member of the Finance Committee. I suspect that has not changed.

If folks want to start another thread on how RMEF does their work compared to other groups, start a thread on that. It comes down to a difference in approach that each organization uses to exercise their influence.

I can tell you how it worked when I was on the Board and when I chaired the Committee in charge of these legislative and policy issues.

The Board's Governmental Affairs Committee met once a month to discuss the issues that were Federal policy and policy from the dozen+ elk states. Highly qualified staff brought the issues to the Committee for discussion. Board members used feedback from members to add to the topics brought forth by the staff. Staff did not have the permission to "go it alone" without approval from this committee. If some issues were deemed super important, I had the power to convene a special meeting of that Committee. Otherwise it was dealt with via the standard protocols of the organization.

There was one staff person at RMEF who dealt with these issues and they were surely maxed out to cover Federal issues and all the state issues. That person left last fall, a very inopportune time, given so many state legislatures meet in the winter. Last I knew, they were interviewing finalists for the position. This is a person you hire with extensive background in policy at both the Federal and State levels, so filling that position is not as simple as posting a notice on Monster.com. Unfortunate timing, for sure.

As far as the debate about using behind the scenes versus airing things out in public, that was a big lesson for me. When I came to the Board, I was a "take it to the people" and a "light them up" kind of guy. My expectations were much like is being expected from the comments I am reading here.

I got to see first-hand how behind the scenes could be far more effective in the long-term. I got to see how a more deliberate and strategic approach allowed invitation to participate no matter which party was in power and no matter what policy was at play. I saw how long-term relationships could be leveraged in ways I was not expecting. It was a big learning curve for me, but I came to accept the value, in spite of my inherent, "Kick 'em when you can" approach.

The number of issues RMEF helped with behind the scenes in the six years I was on the Board and the four years I chaired that Committee was remarkable. Yet, RMEF never made a single mention of any of them. Doing so runs the risk of jeopardizing key relationship and causing some to no longer trust an organization if that org operates with too much public flair.

There is surely a great need for the public grassroots rallying that we saw yesterday. It is invaluable to have groups that excel at that, also.

Does this approach make RMEF less nimble than some would like? Sure it does. I got all kinds of flack for the delays caused by formal protocols when I was on the Board. We are reading comments here reflecting such.

Does this more formal approach cause RMEF to be deliberate on the long-term mission and prevent some missteps they had made previously when they did not have the formal protocols on how to engage in these issues? Definitely. And when they do weigh in, it has a lot of impact.

To compare these legislative issues that pop up like gophers on a spring prairie to a well-funded ballot-box-biology initiative on wolves is like comparing apples and bike tires.

I'm no longer on the Board, so I can't confirm exactly how things happen at RMEF two years later. Being looped in on many discussions and having them seek my opinions, I do think it is still operating very much like it was when I was on the board and this Committee.

I do know they are following these issues. I know who they are talking to. They will continue to operate behind the scenes very effectively.

RMEF's strategy to not be the loud public critic on these legislative issues was a source of criticism when I was on the Board. I'll admit, it is frustrating to get hammered by good folks who disagree with that approach, as you know they mean well in their criticism. Yet, there is absolute value in having a well-respected organization fill that role while other groups work on the public grassroots effort.

Some will never be satisfied by that explanation I provided. I get that, as even while on the Board it took me some time to see the value in having groups doing both. I also get that no amount of explanation will likely change the minds of many who are critical of the RMEF approach when they want more of the public grassroots approach.

If folks want to start another thread to debate the merits of vocal grassroots pressure versus behind the scenes work or what mix/blend of the two is helpful, I am happy to chime in on another thread about that topic.

For now, this thread is about HB 505.
So Randy, my conservative self wants to think that just as Rep Fuller said to me on the phone that liberals agenda is spread through shell interest groups, perhaps RMEF is funneling money to Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, and other groups.

This is a rhetorical post, no need to reply.....just let me have this moment. Thanks! ;-) and thanks again for all that you do and the credibility that you bring to the table.
 
So Randy, my conservative self wants to think that just as Rep Fuller said to me on the phone that liberals agenda is spread through shell interest groups, perhaps RMEF is funneling money to Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, and other groups.

This is a rhetorical post, no need to reply.....just let me have this moment. Thanks! ;-) and thanks again for all that you do and the credibility that you bring to the table.
Good ‘ol R fearmongering. “We have no good ideas but those guys will take your guns.”
 
I have reached out to all the members of the committee thanking them for the hearing and offering them any further data or discussion they would like. We will see what happens.

One thing I wanted to point out:

I believe counting zoom and in-person testimony, there was 46 opponents. Amongst those, I was trying to count this morning how many of those are HuntTalkers - I think I settled on at least a dozen. That's more than 1/4 of those who testified in person, and there were no doubt many more that sent in letters/calls.

I don't know how involved I would be without this forum. I know there are many battles yet to be fought if this makes it out of committtee, but the point is regardless of how HB 505 pans out, this is a special corner of the internet.
 
It looks like they have amended it so that you can only gain 1 extra point instead of 5.

keep hitting the emails/phones on this one. It’s still a garbage bill!

Draft amendments. They may take executive action today, if these are being posted.

Keep hammering on the committee throughout the course of the day. They meet at 3 PM. Call, write, email, send up smoke signals so they are inundated throughout the floor session.
 
I think under ordinary circumstances I can perhaps see some merit in RMEF's behind the scenes approach. But this bill seems to be an unprecedented crisis re elk management (or rather doing away with elk management) and many sportsmen (and women) - but more importantly as we have seen some legislators - were looking for some position from RMEF. This is about elk after all. I'm sorry but RMEF's silence sent the wrong message. I think anyone with any influence left with that organization should impress this upon them before it's too late. Right now too many sportspeople who have only heard rumblings are left with too many questions. "Is what I'm reading in the Missoulian about this just more liberal propaganda? Why isn't my elk foundation weighing in?" This is about leadership. Without it we're just a gaggle of gripers with no real credibility. And credibility is what's needed. I think if this horrible bill passes it will have very, very serious repercussions for RMEF's credibility if they publicly take no position. That is very clear from what I'm reading here. They must know that. Baffling to say the least. Some of us may start connecting dots about motivation - whether they are real or not.
 
Last edited:
If a gaggle of gripers who take a day off of work to testify against a bad bill doesn’t have credibility then we are in a bad position, politically.

Welcome to politics before policy.

This happens all the time in the MT legislature. Remember HB 161 last session, where over 70 people signed in to oppose the elimination of the public's right to comment on wildlife issues?

It died on a tie vote, because the Majority Floor Leader was the sponsor (it was written by Kerry White, btw). The guy who voted to kill it from the GOP side got primaried & was replaced with a far right dude.

Crossbows? Overwhelming opposition, yet it's going to pass.

All of the elk archery bills from the past? A lot of them went to the senate floor to die, after hte committee ignored sportsmen.

The MTGOP has, for a hell of a long time, been antagonistic to sportsmen. They put the head of the Land Transfer movement as the chair of Senate Fish & Game. John Brenden, who openly battled with every hunting group, was the chair before that. Now, we have Hinebauch who openly calls groups "green decoys" in committee while lambasting key conservation programs.

So, don't be surprised if a bill with overwhelming opposition flies through a committee.
 
Draft amendments. They may take executive action today, if these are being posted.

Keep hammering on the committee throughout the course of the day. They meet at 3 PM. Call, write, email, send up smoke signals so they are inundated throughout the floor session.
Second contact made to all.
 
If a gaggle of gripers who take a day off of work to testify against a bad bill doesn’t have credibility then we are in a bad position, politically.
Gerald, to the legislators you are just another Gerald. Do they know or care if you missed work? You are just another little guy. One vote. RMEF is a much bigger voice. When they talk to their membership that voice potentially becomes a whole lot of votes.
 
Im told the potential swing votes on the F&G Committee we need to call RIGHT NOW are:

Ross Fitzgerald (406) 788-1443
Brian Putnam (406) 233-9463
Denley Loge (406) 649-2368
Linda Reksten (406) 471-8359
Neil Durham (406) 471-2356
I left messages with all of them last night. I think most of these numbers are cell phones so give texting a shot!
 
Gerald, to the legislators you are just another Gerald. Do they know or care if you missed work? You are just another little guy. One vote. RMEF is a much bigger voice. When they talk to their membership that voice potentially becomes a whole lot of votes.
Big Fin already hashed out the RMEF deal. Quit screwing up this thread and go comment on that one if you want To keep bringing them up.
 
Gerald, to the legislators you are just another Gerald. Do they know or care if you missed work? You are just another little guy. One vote. RMEF is a much bigger voice. When they talk to their membership that voice potentially becomes a whole lot of votes.
Did you miss this above?

If folks want to start another thread to debate the merits of vocal grassroots pressure versus behind the scenes work or what mix/blend of the two is helpful, I am happy to chime in on another thread about that topic.

For now, this thread is about HB 505.
 
Big Fin already hashed out the RMEF deal. Quit screwing up this thread and go comment on that one if you want To keep bringing them up.
I think my message was clear enough and on track with this thread: it's still not too late for RMEF to take a leadership role ON THIS BILL. I'm not particularly interested in how they work in ordinary situations because it's not relevant to this one. I think we all know this is an extraordinary situation that desperately needs someone with clout to take a leadership role for the future of Montana's public elk hunting and management. They can still speak up.
 
FYI I sent the following group text to the 5 potential swing reps above. None bounced back so they appear to be going through....best thing about text messages, they go through no matter what unlike voicemails to full voicemail boxes. I encourage everyone to give it a shot. Here's what I sent.....

This is a plea from a Kalispell hunter and my family. Please vote HB505 down. Give us the chance to have input on it. As Hank Worsech testified, this bill did not come out of FWP and thus normal protocols were not used. That becomes evident when you see the enormous sportsmen and women response in opposition to this bill. We simply want a seat at the table. Not to mention the Elk Council has yet to furnish it's results so let's not introduce new legislation until we've heard from them, please. From the bottom of my heart, please.
 
I think my message was clear enough and on track with this thread: it's still not too late for RMEF to take a leadership role ON THIS BILL. I'm not particularly interested in how they work in ordinary situations because it's not relevant to this one. I think we all know this is an extraordinary situation that desperately needs someone with clout to take a leadership role for the future of Montana's public elk hunting and management. They can still speak up.
Must you derail every thread? The folks actually trying to do something about this right now are asking you to take it somewhere else. This thread has been a valuable resource in coordinating responses. Having to wade through your garbage posts beating dead horses is making communication on the issue here more difficult at the moment.

Emailing entire committee again, plus GG last night. Are we expecting a vote this afternoon then?
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
114,054
Messages
2,042,553
Members
36,442
Latest member
Grendelhunter98
Back
Top