HB 243 - Mandatory In-Person Field Day for Hunters Ed

[Scott85]

I think the best solution would be teaching it in school. I did hunters education in middle school and EMT-B in high school.

I feel like the bill is well intentioned but it’s misplaced. Technology has became well intrenched in our lives. Expanding opportunities and getting new hunters “qualified” for the outdoors should be everybody priority. By offering hunters education online it at least exposes people to the information. For most of us we were exposed to very same information well before any class; the class was just a requirement in order for us to hunt. I feel that isn’t going to change.
What should happen is more funding for outdoor workshops that focused on new hunters that need mentorship and to teach the “basics” that all of us learned from a very early age.

 

[Dougfirtree]

There isn't a single Hunters Ed course in Bozeman... that's a joke.

Isn't Bozeman like the western capital of hunting what are Rinella/Newberg doing next weekend... seriously though how is there not a single course this spring?

I agree with you 100% about online courses, I disagree with you about how we fix it.



Folks will always follow the path of least resistance, often well intentioned laws have unfortunate side effects when people don't contemplate why certain behaviors are occurring.

Having it taught in schools is a great solution.

In fairness, having been through this process with two kids now, classes show up on those websites in spurts and at certain times of the year. There may be tons of them at another time. I know in Vermont, where we did it, a bunch of field days show up on the calendar in early Fall.

I took my bowhunting safety course in Missoula, in the 90's and it was absolutely fantastic. It was taught by a team of really experienced bowhunters, who were 100% in it out of love and a desire to make all bowhunters better. They did such a nice job impressing the ethical side of hunting on the students and challenging students to examine what they thought they knew. In the end, a kid has to be able to find a course that can work. We don't want to make it prohibitively hard for them to begin hunting, but I sure wish that every kid could go through that Montana field day that I did.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

In fairness, having been through this process with two kids now, classes show up on those websites in spurts and at certain times of the year. There may be tons of them at another time. I know in Vermont, where we did it, a bunch of field days show up on the calendar in early Fall.

I took my bowhunting safety course in Missoula, in the 90's and it was absolutely fantastic. It was taught by a team of really experienced bowhunters, who were 100% in it out of love and a desire to make all bowhunters better. They did such a nice job impressing the ethical side of hunting on the students and challenging students to examine what they thought they knew. In the end, a kid has to be able to find a course that can work. We don't want to make it prohibitively hard for them to begin hunting, but I sure wish that every kid could go through that Montana field day that I did.

Yeah I mean to be clear I took mine in 2011 at age 23, there wasn't an online option at the time and I went for 2 hours every night for a week with a bunch of 11 year olds and then to a full day Saturday field day, while working full time.

I would do it again that way.

 

[Dougfirtree]

Now I'm thinking about that course I took in Missoula. I still remember the lead instructor's name and quick google search turned this up. How cool when you get a guy of this caliber teaching hunter safety! I bet there's a lot of folks on this site who should be looking to get involved.

Greg Munther

Backcountry Hunters & Anglers is the voice for our wild public lands, waters and wildlife.

www.backcountryhunters.org

 

[BuzzH]

When was the last time you went to a course... they use fake guns in the class room portions.

Mossberg Introduces Five-Gun Training Set for Hunter Education Classes

Each Mossberg firearm in this set is clearly marked as non-functioning and features blaze orange stock and forend to ensure safe, responsible hands-on training...

www.ammoland.com

I quit with fake guns when I was about eight...that is another joke.

I took hunters safety in Montana, Utah, and most recently Arizona in about 2005 or 2006. Took bowhunters ed in Montana twice as well.

Even Arizona is now an online money making scheme.

If it's going to be online only, just drop the requirement and turn everyone loose.

 

[BuzzH]

Now I'm thinking about that course I took in Missoula. I still remember the lead instructor's name and quick google search turned this up. How cool when you get a guy of this caliber teaching hunter safety! I bet there's a lot of folks on this site who should be looking to get involved.

Greg Munther

Backcountry Hunters & Anglers is the voice for our wild public lands, waters and wildlife.

www.backcountryhunters.org

I took bowhunters ed from Greg the second time specifically because he was the instructor.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I quit with fake guns when I was about eight...that is another joke.

I took hunters safety in Montana, Utah, and most recently Arizona in about 2005 or 2006. Took bowhunters ed in Montana twice as well.

Even Arizona is now an online money making scheme.

If it's going to be online only, just drop the requirement and turn everyone loose.

On any given day who do you think is crankier you or me?

Gotta be a toss up

 

[BuzzH]

On any given day who do you think is crankier you or me?

Gotta be a toss up

It's all fun and games until someone gets shot and dies...nothing to do with cranky.

You can argue all you want, but online courses are not sufficient...and best case a very piss poor substitute for in person, hands on.

There needs to be higher bars for entry into hunting, not lower.

If it were up to me hunters Ed would be required every 5 years for everybody...for all kinds of reasons.

 

[Nick87]

If it were up to me hunters Ed would be required every 5 years for everybody...for all kinds of reasons.

Refresher courses help. No different than MSHA or OSHA.

 

[Nicoli7153]

this thread and its comments have me trying to reflect on my hunters ed experience when i was like 13 or 14, whatever it was.

and that's the funny thing, i can't really reflect on it because i don't remember jack chit. it was in person and we shot .22 at the indoor rifle range at cpw headquarters.

i remember one night was in the back of a wal mart, we watched a deer get gutted on a 20 inch crt tv on a tall wheely stand. the rest was at cpw headquarters and i couldn't tell you basically anything about the content.

i remember the instructor said all parents taking the class with their kids have to buy their kid a new gun if their kid beats their final test score. my dad and i tied, missing one question each.

point being, 99% of my actual, practical, learned hunters ed came from learning on the go on my first hunts, listening to and watching steve rinella and randy newberg and much more later after spending lots of time on this forum. i never actually went hunting until i was 26 turning 27.

hunters ed is important but i can't help but think that for young kids, it's largely a box that needs to be checked off and i wonder if we shouldn't put too much stake in it. parents are the real hunting educators, my dad and i never actually went out, because he didn't actually know how to do so and not ruin me on hunting because of his own ignorance. so i self taught via the podcasts and content of people like rinella and newberg that are excellent examples of how to hunt properly and think properly about hunting.

having a required in person field day is good, and will likely help spur curiosity and questions in children that lead to good and better outcomes. but i honestly think it won't do anything to make kids better hunters. like at all. 99.99% of what makes kid good, proper, ethical, thinkin' hunters comes after hunters ed IMO.

hunters ed should probably honestly be 80% gun safety (over 50% should occur in person with fake and real guns); 15% processing, field, and home prep; and 5% general hunting education.

and at the same time 100% of hunters ed should be connecting kids that don't have people to take them out, with people who know what's up to take them out.

just rambling thoughts... while good, i guess i really don't think mandatory in person time is all that hugely important, even though it is.

Great points!
The class is meant to be a first step. Mentoring young outdoor people is what is the next step and we all should do what we can. No substitute for experience!

The classes were originally set up to help reduce hunting injury and fatalities incidents. I know our rates in Michigan have gone way down since the adoption of the program.

Instilling a love and respect for the outdoors and its creatures is part of the progression and the heritage that we all share in and should foster in others. Most of us do.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It's all fun and games until someone gets shot and dies...nothing to do with cranky.

You can argue all you want, but online courses are not sufficient...and best case a very piss poor substitute for in person, hands on.

There needs to be higher bars for entry into hunting, not lower.

If it were up to me hunters Ed would be required every 5 years for everybody...for all kinds of reasons.

I'm not actually opposed to that, but problem still remains that MTFWP has no ability to meet current hunters ed demands so it's all kinda moot.

Maybe the state needs to allocate funds for some ranges and classrooms... maybe that's the issue

 

[elkduds]

Sure. I generally support the idea of safety. I have taken hunter safety in multiple states and on-line last year. That said, I think there should be a safety class for anyone to be able to buy a firearm.

The right to be irresponsible and reckless with deadly weapons shall not be infringed.

 

[Scott85]

It's all fun and games until someone gets shot and dies...nothing to do with cranky.

You can argue all you want, but online courses are not sufficient...and best case a very piss poor substitute for in person, hands on.

There needs to be higher bars for entry into hunting, not lower.

If it were up to me hunters Ed would be required every 5 years for everybody...for all kinds of reasons.

So how long have you been teaching hunters ed?

 

[TOGIE]

Great points!
The class is meant to be a first step. Mentoring young outdoor people is what is the next step and we all should do what we can. No substitute for experience!

The classes were originally set up to help reduce hunting injury and fatalities incidents. I know our rates in Michigan have gone way down since the adoption of the program.

Instilling a love and respect for the outdoors and its creatures is part of the progression and the heritage that we all share in and should foster in others. Most of us do.

It’s hard.

No doubt, hunter safety courses are important and make a difference.

But you just actually can’t teach a good portion of what a good portion of hunters safety is all about at the range. It requires a smart adult present while hunting to actually teach that stuff.

You can’t teach a kid how to slow down and think clearly and carefully while staring down a broadsided animal with a loaded gun for the first time at the range. You can’t replicate that. You can’t replicate how difficult it can be to remember that you re racked a round after shooting an animal. You need competent mentors present while hunting for that stuff.

It’s hard to teach a kid how easily you can cut yourself while processing an animal and how dangerous of a situation that can be until you’re doing it.

You can talk about all of that stuff in hunters ed in person, online, and at the range but it’s meaningless and intangible.

Hunters safety is necessary and paramount. But IMO whether it’s online or in person doesn’t change the fact that there’s so much that can’t be accomplished in hunters safety unles you make it a 5 credit college course with real hunting as the final exam.

 

[jt13]

We have in-person and online courses available. The in-person courses are still the majority of participants. Also as a guy that teaches hunter-ed and responds to hunting accidents, it's rarely the kids. If I recall correctly, the average age of an individual in a hunting accident is over 50. Complacency kills.

 

[MTGomer]

I like the idea in theory and my Hunter Ed was in person when I took it as a child.
My parents (married at the time) had to drive me to Missoula from the 9 mile valley for the rifle one and at 14 I actually illegally drove my dad’s car to the archery one in Frenchtown from his house on Mullan Rd a few miles away.

Currrently in AZ, I hear that the classes fill up and kids can’t get into them and that there’s not enough volunteers to add more instructors.
Hopefully Montana can ensure that there’s enough classes available if this passes.

 

[Nick87]

Complacency kills.

Yup caught myself a few times doing something that as a kid I never would have thought about doing. Makes you think. You know your doing a good job teaching safety when your kid calls you on it.

 

[kansasdad]

Kansas has two ways to get through Hunter's Education, to get to 12 hours of "training". Traditional class in person(Friday night, all day Saturday) or online hybrid option (computer at your own pace, which has feedback/quiz breaks to prevent you from fast forwarding, with in person class/test on a weekend halfday. At many testing locations some "Field Day" work, with actual shooting is included.

All non residents of any age are required to have passed a HE course somewhere. There is some lame provision for a "crash course" for NR to take should they arrive in Kansas and haven't taken any class. I don't know how that works, and as I said, seems lame.

During COVID the only option was to take another state's HE as the traditional option was not available, nor did they do the in person hybrid half day testing.

For the Montana situation, perhaps a hybrid situation could ease some to the travel complications?

 

[JLS]

A well designed field day can easily work in concert with online hunter Ed. Here the students have to take a written exam and then do a walk through course with the inert Mossbergs (which are fine for this purpose and alleviate concerns of a stupid instructor having live ammo for live firearms) during which they have to demonstrate safe gun handling.

 

[pyrotechnic]

I would support a bill that established well funded and organized in-person hunter's education throughout the state. If it is readily accessible people will utilize it. Currently it''s a joke, as @wllm pointed out, if you're in the bozeman area you're absolutely hosed. Making it mandatory isn't going to magically make the supply to demand ratio for these classes better.

Also, the idea that we're somehow going to generate a wholesome hunting culture with a single day of in person instruction is laughable. That's created by time in the field with mentors who set a good example. I'm betting that a good portion of today's worst offenders went to in person hunter's ed in their youth and then proceeded to do whatever.