Guiding Industry

[Bambistew]

Currious to see how all you DIY/OYOA guys feel about the guiding and outfitting industry.

I don't care for the industry as a whole. To me it's nothing more than legalized market hunting. Its not about taking people out to hunt and helping them have the hunt of thier dreams, IMO it's about selling the public's wildlife for profit. Maybe someone can help me understand how this is not the case.

I've been on two trips to Africa and hunted with an outfitter, I had a great time, but also paid the LO for the farm animals I shot, they were his not the public's.

I think the Alaska guide requirement law is bullshit, but it won't go away anytime soon. Way too much money involved for the guides/outfitters. I mean how the hell does a sheep hunt cost $15,000???

What are your thoughts about the subject.

 

[Wyodeerhunter]

I think non residents should have to hire a guide for everything in AK.

 

[belly-deep]

I think viewing it as legalized market hunting may be a little extreme.

I don't think the outfitting industry is inherently evil, however many individuals and outfitters associations try and push out DIY sportsmen...and that is where I draw the line as to its usefulness.

As a concept, I see nothing wrong with it. It provides a service to the people that use it and income to those that work in it.

As a general rule, I would like to see more restrictions on the industry in most states, but I don't think it needs to be eliminated as market hunting has.

 

[cimby5]

I do not agree with requiring NR's to hire one (e.g. Alaska & WY backcountry). I can go into those same areas to hike, fish, camp, etc, and not have to have to hire a guide. But as soon as I take a bow or rifle with me I suddenly don't know how to take care of myself. Makes no sense. If someone chooses to hire a guide, that's fine, but to make it a requirement is ridiculous.

 

[mixedbag]

I have no problem with outfitters.Alot of guys here in the East would never hunt the west diy which would cost your G&f agencies alot of money in unsold licenses.The ones that lease private ground take care of the resource well since its their livelyhood
I don't agree with any state telling me to use an outfitter though or giving me a better deal if I use one.Really can't understand Wy. no wilderness law or why I can hunt moose unguided in Ak but not sheep
Outfitters aren't evil people or the enemy of diy hunters.I got a ton of help from 2 outfitters on another site for my elk bowhunt,and they knew I was going diy.We need to work together and not against each other as hunters

 

[DreaminofMT6X6s]

The guide requirement has some legit reasoning behind aside from pouring money into the economy and making people rich. BC has the same requirement. That said the prices are total B%^LSH$T!!! Grizzly's, brown bears, moose, sheep you name it are well over $10K a PIECE for the majority of outfitters. There are ways around everything though as well. You can get around the requirement by going along with a resident.

I think it's a really neat job and would love to do it myself however and it serves a purpose. Unless you're talking about high fence or certain private land hunts which are literally just purchasing a big game animal. It's not a horrible thing though. Outfitters are important and bring good money into local economies.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The ones that lease private ground take care of the resource well since its their livelyhood

I don't always agree with this. Part of the problem of overpopulation of elk in Central and Eastern MT is that nobody can get on these leased properties. Guided hunters are here to take trophy animals. Some might take a cow elk or doe every once in a while, but for the most part, they are not interested in maintaining populations.

There's an outfitter in 690 who claims to have 250,000 acres leased. That area is trying to reduce cow elk numbers. I have friends who put in for the tag, only to find that there is no access to where the elk are.

 

[Bambistew]

Alot of guys here in the East would never hunt the west diy which would cost your G&f agencies alot of money in unsold licenses.

I don't agree with this at all. Most all western states have a much higher demand than licenses available. To be honest if you can't manage to hunt deer/elk on your own in the west you should probably stick to tree stands.

In my opinion, people hire an outfitter because they fear failure... plain and simple. They aren't willing to put up the money and come home empty handed, or its easier to pay someone to do all the upfront work. People draw a once in a life time tag and hire an outfitter... for one reason.

The guide requirement has some legit reasoning behind aside from pouring money into the economy and making people rich. BC has the same requirement. That said the prices are total B%^LSH$T!!! Grizzly's, brown bears, moose, sheep you name it are well over $10K a PIECE for the majority of outfitters. There are ways around everything though as well. You can get around the requirement by going along with a resident.

I think it's a really neat job and would love to do it myself however and it serves a purpose. Unless you're talking about high fence or certain private land hunts which are literally just purchasing a big game animal. It's not a horrible thing though. Outfitters are important and bring good money into local economies.

BC is not part of the United States, thus I have no control and it really isn't relavent to the conversation. Alaska requires aliens to hire a guide for everything as well.

The only way a NR can get 'around' the guide thing in AK is go to with a next of kin resident. You can't just go with a friend who lives up here. In WY you can go with any resident...

The drug industry puts a hell of a lot of money into the local economy too.

 

[DreaminofMT6X6s]

Maybe you should talk to drug dealers as well!! Then get a message and relax...you need it!!

 

[Goldtip]

I don't have any real problem with most outfitters, some are good guys, some are not. Don't have any real problem with outfitted hunters, some don't have the time, some don't have the skills to come out west and hunt a DIY and some just want a trophy. Some guys use oputfitted hunts as a learning tool, so someday they can come out and go DIY. The guys who just want a trophy, they don't bother me much, very few are really willing to work as hard as it takes to get one, and those that are really don't get the real trophy anyway. Sure they get antlers on the wall, but we all know that's not where the real trophy hangs anyway.

The outfitting industry in Alaska on the other hand is a different story. Lots of those guys are good guys, and excellent guides, but they run a lot of money into keeping it their hunting country and theirs alone, and profitting off those animals. Personally I think if AK is going to require a guide for me to hunt Grizzly, Goats and Sheep, every Alaska resident should be required to hire a guide to hunt in Montana or Washington where I now reside or any other state. If Wyoming is going to require a guide for me to hunt their Wilderness area, then every Wyoming resident should be required to hire a guide any time he or she wants to hunt another states wilderness.

 

[StrutNut]

Guiding is wanted by those in desire if hunting an animal of type/caliber that they do not have access to where they live or have the equipment/knowledge on how to hunt that game. Some of these hunters have the means to do this often, others, it may truly be a hunt of a lifetime. As far as these people putting money into the local economy, maybe. Often times these are all inclusive hunts and it depends on where the outfitter/guide is spending the money for supplies/food. DIY do typically put money into local economies as they typically come to towns and spend more on gas, ice, food.
The problem with Guides/Outfitters is not really the service they provide, it is more of how they provide it. Guides and clients often do not like level playing fields, they want exclusive opportunities on game that nobody else has. Now, if Outfitters/Guides were restricted to hunting on public grounds, I bet you would see prices dropping and money/opportunities being spread around a little more then the current system. Since game is managed by the state, that is where you would need to voice your opinion and let it be herd. Otherwise, nothing will ever change.

I do agree that many of the guides are very friendly and helpful. They are typically following the laws and filling a need from their clients in the best way they know how. Most work very hard to make sure their clients are satisfied with the experience. That is what you are really paying for, the experience. You want a guarantee - Well, there are places that you can go for that too. They have high fences and even higher fees. All of these places would not exist if there was not a market for them.

I do feel that in some "extreme" hunts guiding should be strongly encouraged for those that have not experience but never mandatory.

 

[putm2sleep]

......is a joke. If you want to be outfitted, go to Africa or NZ. If you need some guidance, ask BigFin and/or do your research. This is the land of the free, home of the brave --- not of high priced ridiculous hunts, crazy amounts of leased land and . Wait a minute, maybe it is getting that way fast?!

>If you are not brave enough for big game and wilderness hunts, stick to small game and fishing. I think there needs to be a cap on this crap. There are 1% of guys who can afford these high priced hunts.

 

[WV Hunter]

...... I think there needs to be a cap on this crap. There are 1% of guys who can afford these high priced hunts.

Should I send my story to the Occupy Wall Street crowd......I am the 99%

 

[buck23]

It just goes against my instincts to pay for a guided deer or elk hunt in the west.I can understand a bit for the Alaska hunts for bear,but that is so overpriced for me it never even enters my mind.I am not against outfitters in any way but I know how they can be against a diy hunter sometimes.I will continue to ramble those hills for elk,deer and antelope,and enjoy it alot.But it will be on my own and may not result in the biggest animal,but it will be all mine.The biggest benefit is the logistics involved in hunting the west,gettin to the game,and outfitters using horses and such can benefit a hunter.

 

[SDHNTR]

I think the guided hunt industry serves a very valid purpose. Ask the guy who only has a week's vacation time and he wants to take his young son out west to experience a quality hunt. Or the guy who lacks all the camping gear, 4 wheelers, horses, optics, etc. necessary to hunt on his own.

Or a guy like me, who had several other hunts planned and then BAM, a sheep tag lands in his lap. My vacation time at work and time away from family is just plain spent. I don't have the time to scout extensively, yet I still want to give this hunt of a lifetime the best chance I can.

Guides are generally very good people in my experience. I do not know any of them who are truly getting rich at it. Like anything else, there are good and bad apples. But the bad ones don't spoil the whole bunch.

I think we are very blessed in this country to have options. Using or not using a guide is one of them. Just don't get all high and mighty and think someone is wrong or inferior just because they choose to hunt differently than you do.

 

[noharleyyet]

Currious to see how all you DIY/OYOA guys feel about the guiding and outfitting industry.

There are good and bad outfitters and good and bad diy'ers...and a few good diy'ers brim full of sanctimony.

 

[Flatrock]

I don't have too much of a problem with outfitter's for the most part. What is starting to irritate the hell out of me though are the celebrity hunter's and also a lot of the writer's for hunting magazine's. Magazine writer's are getting to be more and more like politician's in that they seem to be so out of touch with their subscriber's it is ridiculous.

I just read Curt Wells' editorial in Bowhunter magazine and he said that "the greatest threat to all hunting is declining access to public land. The well-to-do hunter will always have a place to hunt because he'll pay for it by leasing or buying land, or hiring an outfitter who has done that for him. It's the vast majority of hunters, the blue-collar types, who bear the brunt of this problem". Then I read one of his article's about how he hunted for 3 weeks straight last year with 3 different outfitter's in 3 different states. Really??? What a joke.

On a side note to that, I just read Randy's article in Bugle. What a GREAT article. He has made me seriously re-consider where I apply next year. Sure wish we had more people like him to write stuff that is actually useful.

 

[Bucnutz.wis]

There are good and bad outfitters and good and bad diy'ers...and a few good diy'ers brim full of sanctimony.

...I have no control and it really isn't relavent to the conversation - your highness...

 

[Bambistew]

Could the definition of irony be...

"DIY" hunters standing up for the guiding industry?

 

[Calvin]

If they didn't have a guide requirement in AK for sheep, goats, and brown bear, they'd all have to be a NR draw. The odds of drawing a unguided tag would be very tough for those species, as the demand would be very high. (goats would probably be the easiest to draw) It's tough to draw the good tags as an AK resident. I couldn't imagine the odds everybody from the USA could put in for unguided tags.

Personally, I'd work hard and stash away the 15k for a guided hunt, rather than wait 10-20 years to non-res tag, or wait a lifetime to draw a tag in a really good area. Not to sound like a snob, but it's not that hard to save up 15k even on an average salary.