Going to call you 400 lb bear shooters LIERS !!!!
- Thread starter Moosie
- Start date
Ithaca,
>>>I'm willing to put my $$$ where my mouth is, are you?... Are you saying that you think my bear weighs 150 lbs???
The most experienced bear hunter that I know of is JJ Hack (I've asked him some ?'s on another board). He's from the Pacific Northwest is about 50 years old, is a Bear Guide and African Guide and is Western editor for Bear Hunting Magazine. He worked for the Forest Service and used to get paid to "cull" bears with his hounds. He's currently guiding in Africa, but should be back in a week or so. If you agree, I'll give him the photos and measurements and let him settle the bet...
>>>Loser donates $ to HUNT TALK...
I don't really care 'cause I had the most fun I've had in the spring in my life chasin' him around. I know my bear isn't great, but I like him and I like a challenge...?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-05-2002 13:58: Message edited by: mtnboy ]</font>
>>>I'm willing to put my $$$ where my mouth is, are you?... Are you saying that you think my bear weighs 150 lbs???
The most experienced bear hunter that I know of is JJ Hack (I've asked him some ?'s on another board). He's from the Pacific Northwest is about 50 years old, is a Bear Guide and African Guide and is Western editor for Bear Hunting Magazine. He worked for the Forest Service and used to get paid to "cull" bears with his hounds. He's currently guiding in Africa, but should be back in a week or so. If you agree, I'll give him the photos and measurements and let him settle the bet...
>>>Loser donates $ to HUNT TALK...
I don't really care 'cause I had the most fun I've had in the spring in my life chasin' him around. I know my bear isn't great, but I like him and I like a challenge...?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-05-2002 13:58: Message edited by: mtnboy ]</font>
Ithaca 37
New member
mtnboy, What post of mine are you referring to? I don't remember making any comments about your bear at all.
I didn't even know you had posted a picture of your bear until I just now went back and checked your "Dumb--ass" topic. The last time I checked it you hadn't posted a picture yet. He's a real nice looking bear!
Actually, that's a hard picture to estimate weight from, since he's out in front of you like a guy holding the fish out towards the camera. Just judging from the size of the head and paw all I could say is that he's probably well over two hundred pounds, so if your friend estimates him at 260 that might be a good guess. Is that live weight or dressed out? And a bear that measures 18.25 inches could easily weigh 260 lbs.(live weight) if he's in an area with plenty of food.
Hibernation time is another factor. In Idaho a bear that weighs 260 in the Spring might be around 340 lbs. before he hibernated.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-05-2002 14:26: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
I didn't even know you had posted a picture of your bear until I just now went back and checked your "Dumb--ass" topic. The last time I checked it you hadn't posted a picture yet. He's a real nice looking bear!
Actually, that's a hard picture to estimate weight from, since he's out in front of you like a guy holding the fish out towards the camera. Just judging from the size of the head and paw all I could say is that he's probably well over two hundred pounds, so if your friend estimates him at 260 that might be a good guess. Is that live weight or dressed out? And a bear that measures 18.25 inches could easily weigh 260 lbs.(live weight) if he's in an area with plenty of food.
Hibernation time is another factor. In Idaho a bear that weighs 260 in the Spring might be around 340 lbs. before he hibernated.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-05-2002 14:26: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Ithaca 37
New member
mtnboy, no, I wasn't referring to you in that third post.
In Fireside I brought an old topic back to the top titled "Ithaca's Not A Hunter" because there's a picture of a bear in it that measured 19 and 7/16", shot in early May, 1983. We didn't weigh it but we took some measurements that a bear biologist friend of mine used to estimate it's weight at 270 lbs.. It was 7 years old. The biologist said it might have weighed as much as 375 lbs. before hibernating.
Like you, I had the bear well out in front of me for the picture. Maybe we can use it for a comparison somehow. When I look at both of them I'd say there's not much difference between them.
What would the rest of you guys say?
The biologist was known as the top black bear biologist in North America and he had developed a formula for estimating weights based on hundreds of bears that biologists had sedated and weighed and measured as part of their studies. He said the formula was accurate to within 3%.
And for all you big caliber fans---it was shot with a .257 Roberts Improved using a 100 grain Nosler Partition going 3315 fps!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-05-2002 20:09: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
In Fireside I brought an old topic back to the top titled "Ithaca's Not A Hunter" because there's a picture of a bear in it that measured 19 and 7/16", shot in early May, 1983. We didn't weigh it but we took some measurements that a bear biologist friend of mine used to estimate it's weight at 270 lbs.. It was 7 years old. The biologist said it might have weighed as much as 375 lbs. before hibernating.
Like you, I had the bear well out in front of me for the picture. Maybe we can use it for a comparison somehow. When I look at both of them I'd say there's not much difference between them.
What would the rest of you guys say?
The biologist was known as the top black bear biologist in North America and he had developed a formula for estimating weights based on hundreds of bears that biologists had sedated and weighed and measured as part of their studies. He said the formula was accurate to within 3%.
And for all you big caliber fans---it was shot with a .257 Roberts Improved using a 100 grain Nosler Partition going 3315 fps!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-05-2002 20:09: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
T Bone
Well-known member
The biggest bear I saw in Idaho was an awesome chocolate brown boar whose shoulder was even with the 50 gallon bait barrell. I was 12 yards away, shaking so hard I couldn't put it together in the few brief seconds I had a shot. I don't know how much he weighed but it had to have been 300+
Did I later shoot him? NO, I shot the village idiot 80 pounder. I have pictures of him on the bait and after I shot him. My bait partner later shot the big fella with a 7 mag and hit him too high and we never found him....sad end to a good story.
Did I later shoot him? NO, I shot the village idiot 80 pounder. I have pictures of him on the bait and after I shot him. My bait partner later shot the big fella with a 7 mag and hit him too high and we never found him....sad end to a good story.
Moosie
Grand poopa
HAHA.. DANG, I was hoping you guys would have ha the bet and the money go to HUNTTALK
I also wasnm't calling BS on your bear Mt^boy. I was posting info that I got... I do GET a kick out of guys that see 400# + bears every year It's kind of like seeing that "RECORD" bull or buck but didn't get to pull a trigger on it.... Still makes for a good story and I like to listen to them
ANyway, I haven't taken a bear like that yet so I'm still crossing the fingers.. I need to learn not to shoot the villiage idiots like Tyson (T-BONE). Thats why I';m looking foward to Sask. next year...
I also wasnm't calling BS on your bear Mt^boy. I was posting info that I got... I do GET a kick out of guys that see 400# + bears every year
It's kind of like seeing that "RECORD" bull or buck but didn't get to pull a trigger on it.... Still makes for a good story and I like to listen to them ANyway, I haven't taken a bear like that yet so I'm still crossing the fingers.. I need to learn not to shoot the villiage idiots like Tyson (T-BONE). Thats why I';m looking foward to Sask. next year...
Elkhunter
New member
Ithaca, now let me get this right. I have been told by G&F that the average size is 350 and you tell me they were pulling my leg. But the people you know guessed the weight of your bear at 270 pounds in May, a spring bear. How do you know this without a scale? You also said it would have weighed much as 375 lbs. before hibernating. Well that would make that bear's average at 322.5 pounds. So are you now saying that 375 is the largest a bear is going to get before hibernating and in the spring there will be no bears more than 270 pounds? From what I am now reading I do not think it would be very unbelievable to have an average weight of 350 pounds. That same bear would have only had to have an increase in body weight of 55 pounds for the year to give it an average of 350 pounds. So is it now that a 350 pound average is not to be found except when it is you that suggests a bear may be near that because you got it and it was not weighed?
BTW, I was also told the average grizzly weight was 500 pounds around these parts. Is that number really hard to believe also. I do know that bear #19 back in 1994 was 24 inches between the ears, at least that is what G&F and the FS had told me when I saw pictures of that same friggin huge #19. Or maybe it was just a hoax and the picture was altered and was not #19 at all. They were warning or making hunters aware of the presence of #19 in the Gros Ventre that year.
That is what averages are about. It is not that every bear is 350 pounds. It is not that every bear in the spring is 350 pounds. It is an average based on lots of bears, spring summer and fall.
BTW, I was also told the average grizzly weight was 500 pounds around these parts. Is that number really hard to believe also. I do know that bear #19 back in 1994 was 24 inches between the ears, at least that is what G&F and the FS had told me when I saw pictures of that same friggin huge #19. Or maybe it was just a hoax and the picture was altered and was not #19 at all. They were warning or making hunters aware of the presence of #19 in the Gros Ventre that year.
That is what averages are about. It is not that every bear is 350 pounds. It is not that every bear in the spring is 350 pounds. It is an average based on lots of bears, spring summer and fall.
T Bone
Well-known member
Moosie,
You calling me the village idiot?!!
You calling me the village idiot?!!
Moosie
Grand poopa
HAHA T-bone, Although You're the luckiest sun-of-a-Be-hatch that I know (Except lately with your sheep draw ) I didn't call you the idiot...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I need to learn not to shoot the villiage idiots like Tyson (T-BONE). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That sentense says I need to learn not to shoot the viliage idiots like the one you did... MAybe I should have used the word "DID" at the end.... You said ....
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I shot the village idiot 80 pounder <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now, you might have been joking, but since you're no longer in Idaho, Your humor might have gotten raw on me...... .... HEHE
On a dif note, we hooking up for the BBQ when you're in town ?
) I didn't call you the idiot...<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I need to learn not to shoot the villiage idiots like Tyson (T-BONE). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That sentense says I need to learn not to shoot the viliage idiots like the one you did... MAybe I should have used the word "DID" at the end.... You said ....
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I shot the village idiot 80 pounder <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now, you might have been joking, but since you're no longer in Idaho, Your humor might have gotten raw on me...
... .... HEHEOn a dif note, we hooking up for the BBQ when you're in town ?
Muledeer4me
New member
LOL elkhunter ,I was wondering about all of that myself hehehe.
pretty good shot that guy shootin that little bear with a stick bow! vitals must have been the size of a golf ball!! but 250lbs yea right! hahahahahaheheheehe
O.K. im no bear expert but from what ive seen is pretty consistant, bears are damn hard to field judge for even the most seasoned veteran hunters, biologists, guides etc... everywhere ya go someone is gonna misjudge weights and lengths i also see alot of descrepencies in population numbers! for example we have an area 15 min from my house 1ts about 33,000 acres (i beleieve) ,we cant hunt the bears, never have been able to, but to this day , the biologist (Tom) will say that there are 13 bears in rock springs, now ive hunted deer there numerous times the last time i saw 7 different bears, different bears!!!!! in two completely different areas! now what are the chances of me seeing 50% of the total population in one day! B.S. ive argued this with him numerous times that they are grossly underestimating the populations but, who am i to say what i see from countless hours of photographing and
scouting this area, im sure his bi-annual study is much more acurate he never believed a bear in central fla could be in excess of 400lbs, until we video taped "gentle ben" a huge boar that was continually raiding a local hog farmers pens,yep thats right a blackie eatin pigs!!! some didnt beleive that either! after the farmer raised enough hell the state came in an traqualized the bear for relocation they wouldnt issue a permit to kill it because theres only 13 bears in the area remember, but they did traqualize it! it weighed 413lbs!!!!!
O.K. im no bear expert but from what ive seen is pretty consistant, bears are damn hard to field judge for even the most seasoned veteran hunters, biologists, guides etc... everywhere ya go someone is gonna misjudge weights and lengths i also see alot of descrepencies in population numbers! for example we have an area 15 min from my house 1ts about 33,000 acres (i beleieve) ,we cant hunt the bears, never have been able to, but to this day , the biologist (Tom) will say that there are 13 bears in rock springs, now ive hunted deer there numerous times the last time i saw 7 different bears, different bears!!!!! in two completely different areas! now what are the chances of me seeing 50% of the total population in one day! B.S. ive argued this with him numerous times that they are grossly underestimating the populations but, who am i to say what i see from countless hours of photographing and
scouting this area, im sure his bi-annual study is much more acurate
he never believed a bear in central fla could be in excess of 400lbs, until we video taped "gentle ben" a huge boar that was continually raiding a local hog farmers pens,yep thats right a blackie eatin pigs!!! some didnt beleive that either! after the farmer raised enough hell the state came in an traqualized the bear for relocation they wouldnt issue a permit to kill it because theres only 13 bears in the area remember, but they did traqualize it! it weighed 413lbs!!!!! 
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
This is how you weigh them in the field.. before gutting them, use a tape measurer. It's real close. I'm pretty sure I saw one that was in the 400lb class this spring (last Saturday) but we'll never know because the fatass got away from me. I've seen 31 this spring, not counting the griz, I'd guess every one I've seen is well under 200lbs except 4.
http://www.customosteo.com/huntingadventures/news/bear_weight.php3
http://www.customosteo.com/huntingadventures/news/bear_weight.php3
Ithaca 37
New member
Elkhunter, Try reading my post again. I said the biologist's estimate was based on a formula (table)that he had helped develop based on measurements. And his estimate on what the bear might weigh before hibernation was based on an average size difference from Spring to Fall for bears with those measurements.
By the way, when that bear was shot it was number 32 in the Idaho record book and you can see by the skull measurement that it was much larger than average.
By the way, when that bear was shot it was number 32 in the Idaho record book and you can see by the skull measurement that it was much larger than average.
Ithaca 37
New member
While I was writing my post Greenhorn was posting his link to the formula. That one uses the same measurements we used.
Elkhunter, I keep reading your post over and over trying to make some sense out of it and figure out what you're trying to say!
I was never talking about all bears, just the one I shot.
Well, anyway, it must have made sense to MD4M.
That's a scarey thought in itself!
Sows that weigh over 175 lbs. are rare, no matter how old they are. That means there would have to be an awful lot of 400 lb. boars out there to keep the overall average up to 350 lbs.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-06-2002 12:26: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Elkhunter, I keep reading your post over and over trying to make some sense out of it and figure out what you're trying to say!
Well, anyway, it must have made sense to MD4M.
Sows that weigh over 175 lbs. are rare, no matter how old they are. That means there would have to be an awful lot of 400 lb. boars out there to keep the overall average up to 350 lbs.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-06-2002 12:26: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
ELKHUNTER...
Which Game and Fish dude told you that the "average" bear in that area is 350lbs?? Having hunted bears quite a lot in your area, and having spoke with several (if not all) of the local biologists that check each of the bear that are taken there) ...that is quite differnet from what I know. Actually, a 5ft bear is probably "average" in those parts... and that's a good bear area. "Average" has a precise meaning, which means just as many weigh more than as weigh less than...
350lb average.. MY ASS.
Get on the phone and call Doug Brimeyer and ask him what the average size of bears killed in that area are. He told me several times in my years of bear hunting down there ... "Don't expect a 6 foot bear, they are very uncommon, just look for a mature bear with a nice hide."
I did kill a 7 footer with a 20" skull.
But that isn't a representative of the "average" bear there by any means. I hunted there for 3 Springs and one fall while scouting for moose.
The guy that told you that was either an idiot or you misunderstood him.
Which Game and Fish dude told you that the "average" bear in that area is 350lbs?? Having hunted bears quite a lot in your area, and having spoke with several (if not all) of the local biologists that check each of the bear that are taken there) ...that is quite differnet from what I know. Actually, a 5ft bear is probably "average" in those parts... and that's a good bear area. "Average" has a precise meaning, which means just as many weigh more than as weigh less than...
350lb average.. MY ASS.
Get on the phone and call Doug Brimeyer and ask him what the average size of bears killed in that area are. He told me several times in my years of bear hunting down there ... "Don't expect a 6 foot bear, they are very uncommon, just look for a mature bear with a nice hide."
I did kill a 7 footer with a 20" skull.
The guy that told you that was either an idiot or you misunderstood him.
Erik in AK
New member
Our bears up here in AK are generally small but there are lots and lots of them. 225 lbs is probably a close guesstimate of average fall weight statewide, but those averages can vary regionally. The most noteable exceptions are the more remote areas of Prince William Sound and selected islands in southeast AK. Prince of Wales and Kake islands have no or very small brown bear populations so the blackies are the primary bear species. The area is remote, relatively unpopulated, there's tremendous habitat and lots and lots of food. Take all that and throw in very mild winters(for Alaska) and you get big bears. In fact, some years they don't even hibernate. Although the big bear numbers on PoW have taken a beating in recent years 300lb+ 7 footers are taken every year. In the interior areas of AK bears hibernate from around the 12th of October to around the 28th of April--over 6 months. They can't grow when they don't eat.
I tend to agree with the others in that most guys in the heat of the moment and after lugging all that dead weight out of the woods tend to over estimate body weight. I've helped haul out two spring bears at or over 6 foot and both weighed less than 200lbs(1 weighed whole and 1 using the chest circumference formula)
To my knowledge the heaviest black bear ever taken was a 12 year old 840lb monster from central Pennsylvania in 90 or 91 I think. Taken by a deer hunter(in PA a big game license is either/or for deer/bear)from a tree stand. The bear was on his way to left over standing corn and his belly was full of corn and apples.
By the way did you know that bears continue to grow throughout their life spans? If average they grow steadily until age 8 or 9 where they reach 90% of their maximum lifetime potential. From then on they grow very little from year to year, but they do grow. Its more noticeable in skull measurements than in body size. So if you find that 20 year old out there he'll have a big noggin regardless if he's fall fat or spring skinny.
By the way--the spring bear efforts of yours truly have been dismal. 1 yearling about a mile away and no hits on the bait as of 30 May. Oh well the Kings are running so all's not lost
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-06-2002 20:27: Message edited by: Erik in AK ]</font>
I tend to agree with the others in that most guys in the heat of the moment and after lugging all that dead weight out of the woods tend to over estimate body weight. I've helped haul out two spring bears at or over 6 foot and both weighed less than 200lbs(1 weighed whole and 1 using the chest circumference formula)
To my knowledge the heaviest black bear ever taken was a 12 year old 840lb monster from central Pennsylvania in 90 or 91 I think. Taken by a deer hunter(in PA a big game license is either/or for deer/bear)from a tree stand. The bear was on his way to left over standing corn and his belly was full of corn and apples.
By the way did you know that bears continue to grow throughout their life spans? If average they grow steadily until age 8 or 9 where they reach 90% of their maximum lifetime potential. From then on they grow very little from year to year, but they do grow. Its more noticeable in skull measurements than in body size. So if you find that 20 year old out there he'll have a big noggin regardless if he's fall fat or spring skinny.
By the way--the spring bear efforts of yours truly have been dismal. 1 yearling about a mile away and no hits on the bait as of 30 May. Oh well the Kings are running so all's not lost
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-06-2002 20:27: Message edited by: Erik in AK ]</font>
Elkhunter
New member
All I was trying to say is that when one person tells another person it is pulling the leg and if another person tells something then it is OK. Guess it just depends on who you really wish to listen to. And the weight of bears harvested does not necessarily equal nor represent all bears considered for an average. It may be BS or not, but just because Ithaca's buddy claims to estimate a bear's weight by looking at it to within a few pounds does not mean it is the truth either. I am not saying it can not be done or is not true, nor am I saying that the average is 350 pounds, but I am saying that maybe it can be. Not every hunter harvests the biggest bears, therefore the average weight of the bears taken may not be accurate either. Who the G&F person was that I talked to back in like 1990 or so is beyond me. I do know that some hunters do have scales to weight their game unlike what Ithaca stated. Not trying to argue, just trying to clarify myself. I was given a piece of information back then and have heard it by others since then and I was passing this information on for you to do what you want with it. Believe it or not, it doesn't matter to me. All I have been trying to do was to figure out how the average weights come about. And it would not surprise me if the guy was an idiot, don't know and don't care.
Ithaca 37
New member
Elkhunter, "but just because Ithaca's buddy claims to estimate a bear's weight by looking at it to within a few pounds does not mean it is the truth either."
Here's what I said in my post on 6/5 17:31 "We didn't weigh it but we took some measurements that a bear biologist friend of mine used to estimate it's weight at 270 lbs.....He said the formula was accurate to within 3%."
He used a table like the one Greenhorn gave the link to.
He was known as the top black bear biologist in North America and was involved in just about every major black bear study in the country. He was one of those nuts who would crawl into the den with the hibernating bear and tag it.
I can't imagine where you got the idea I said anything about him looking at bears and estimating weights, although he was pretty good at that because he had sedated and weighed hundreds of bears. He never saw mine. I took the measurements and gave them to him.
This is the kind of clarification I have to go thru for MD4M so often!
Erik, Those huge bears in PA usually got that way from hanging around dumps all year. We used to go bear watching at the dumps in PA when I turkey hunted there and we'd see some real big bears.
Here's what I said in my post on 6/5 17:31 "We didn't weigh it but we took some measurements that a bear biologist friend of mine used to estimate it's weight at 270 lbs.....He said the formula was accurate to within 3%."
He used a table like the one Greenhorn gave the link to.
He was known as the top black bear biologist in North America and was involved in just about every major black bear study in the country. He was one of those nuts who would crawl into the den with the hibernating bear and tag it.
I can't imagine where you got the idea I said anything about him looking at bears and estimating weights, although he was pretty good at that because he had sedated and weighed hundreds of bears. He never saw mine. I took the measurements and gave them to him.
This is the kind of clarification I have to go thru for MD4M so often!
Erik, Those huge bears in PA usually got that way from hanging around dumps all year. We used to go bear watching at the dumps in PA when I turkey hunted there and we'd see some real big bears.
