Goats and Bighorn sheep

[Duck-Slayer]

A good read. Hopefully will educate some on this topic.
Matt

Packgoats ARE NOT a hazard to Bighorn Sheep

This article clears up the confusion that is rampant in the minds of many people regarding the supposed hazard to Bighorn Sheep represented by Packgoats.

packgoats.com

 

[Jc2020]

That’s good to know now if I could just draw a tag for one

 

[Oak]

That’s good to know now if I could just draw a tag for one

I recommend that you read from more sources than the pack goat association should you have to opportunity to spend time in wild sheep country with goats. Good luck drawing that tag.

 

[1_pointer]

 

[Duck-Slayer]

I suggest you read information from non-bighorn people also...... they kinda lump pack goats in with the millions of domestic sheep, since they have money and us pack goaters don’t have that kind of money they are coming after the weakest first..... there is no conclusive scientific evidence to point at goats being the cause of sheep die offs from specifically from pack goats.
Matt

 

[Oak]

The headline of the link in the OP is "Packgoats ARE NOT a hazard to bighorn sheep." There is certainly evidence to suggest that domestic goats do not pose nearly the risk that domestic sheep do, but nothing to warrant this all caps pronouncement.

Here is a 2017 paper on the subject. Exposure of bighorn sheep to domestic goats colonized with Mycoplasma ovipneumoniae induces sub-lethal pneumonia

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@Duck-Slayer honestly not trying to push your buttons but that post actually made me more concerned.

In both the cited Silver Bell Mountains case and the Washington State University study a pathogen was transmitted from goats to sheep. This demonstrates in a real world and clinical setting that goats can be a vector for disease.

"Following the infection with Movi, ALL GOATS AND BIGHORN SHEEP showed signs of respiratory disease "

Given the massive efforts that have been under taken to put sheep back on the mountain, and the incredibly small user group goat bans impact it seems a no brainier to ban pack goats from critical sheep habitat.

The cost benefit here just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

 

[Jc2020]

Thanks Yeah I’ve been reading various things and researching what I can about sheep hunting I wouldn’t just read one article and call it good and take off hunting if I draw a tag. I have been doing a fare amount of research on hunting sheep and Have an Alaska Dall sheep hunt planned for next year and will keep applying for the big horn tags

 

[Duck-Slayer]

“Conclusions/Significance
M. ovipneumoniae strains carried by domestic goats were transmitted to comingled bighorn sheep, triggering development of pneumonia. However, the severity of the disease was markedly milder than that seen in similar experiments with domestic sheep strains of the bacterium.”

This right here is why I feel that pack goaters are getting the shaft! Yes some it’s “possible” for them to transfer it to a bighorn but is pretty much non fatal.... and I doubt any pack goat person is going to pen there stock up with bighorns in the wild
“ with relatively little fatal bighorn sheep pneumonia observed in two experimental comingling studies with domestic goats (22% of 9 bighorn sheep). Domestic goats may transmit respiratory pathogens when they contact bighorn sheep”
“However, contrary to previous studies that utilized domestic sheep carrying M. ovipneumoniae, the respiratory disease observed following experimental contact with domestic goats carrying M. ovipneumo- niae was relatively mild, resulting in no fatalities.”

“All bighorn sheep kept in captivity under very similar conditions, but without contact with goats (experiment 1 pen 2) or in contact with M. ovipneumoniae-free goats (experi- ment 2, pen 1) did not develop signs of pneumonia.”

So in conclusion my goats don’t have pneumonia will not transfer anything to bighorn sheep! So a proactive pack goater like me will not have an impact on bighorn sheep! So please tell me why I shouldn’t be able to pack anywhere I want to w my packgoats?
Matt

 

[1_pointer]

Don't forget the llama's...

 

[Deleted member 28227]

“Conclusions/Significance
M. ovipneumoniae strains carried by domestic goats were transmitted to comingled bighorn sheep, triggering development of pneumonia. However, the severity of the disease was markedly milder than that seen in similar experiments with domestic sheep strains of the bacterium.”

This right here is why I feel that pack goaters are getting the shaft! Yes some it’s “possible” for them to transfer it to a bighorn but is pretty much non fatal.... and I doubt any pack goat person is going to pen there stock up with bighorns in the wild
“ with relatively little fatal bighorn sheep pneumonia observed in two experimental comingling studies with domestic goats (22% of 9 bighorn sheep). Domestic goats may transmit respiratory pathogens when they contact bighorn sheep”
“However, contrary to previous studies that utilized domestic sheep carrying M. ovipneumoniae, the respiratory disease observed following experimental contact with domestic goats carrying M. ovipneumo- niae was relatively mild, resulting in no fatalities.”

“All bighorn sheep kept in captivity under very similar conditions, but without contact with goats (experiment 1 pen 2) or in contact with M. ovipneumoniae-free goats (experi- ment 2, pen 1) did not develop signs of pneumonia.”

So in conclusion my goats don’t have pneumonia will not transfer anything to bighorn sheep! So a proactive pack goater like me will not have an impact on bighorn sheep! So please tell me why I shouldn’t be able to pack anywhere I want to w my packgoats?
Matt

I don't have Covid-19 why do I need to stay in my house.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Don't forget the llama's...

South American Camelids (SACs)

We found that there is high uncertainty about the probability of pathogen transmission from SACs to wild ungulates. We found no peer-reviewed publications documenting pathogen transmission from camelids to wild ungulates or to domestic sheep and goats for the identified pathogens. However, because there was almost no research examining the shedding and transmission dynamics for pathogens in camelid herds, or between camelids and other ruminants, a lack of peer-reviewed evidence should not be considered proof that transmission has not, or could not, occur. We did find anecdotal evidence that the introduction of trekking llamas near Atlin, Terrace and the Babine Mountains of BC (Skeena region) coincided with the first reports of CE in Mountain Goats (Oreamnos americanus) in these regions.

Overall, we assessed the composite disease risk posed to wild ungulates by SACs accessing backcountry areas as medium-high with medium associated uncertainty. This assessment was driven primarily by the 5 high impact and the medium-high risk posed by the respiratory pathogens M. haemolytica and Pasteurella spp., the medium-high risk posed by CE, and the medium risk posed by Johne’s Disease. Mitigation could be undertaken to partially reduce risk posed by respiratory pathogens, although mitigation for CE and Johne’s Disease is much more challenging.

https://www.wildsheepfoundation.org/cache/DOC186_2017-10-24_Risk_Assessment_Use_of_Camelids_for_Backcountry_Trekking_BC.pdf?20171101094937

 

[Duck-Slayer]

I don't have Covid-19 why do I need to stay in my house.

If you read the report

I don't have Covid-19 why do I need to stay in my house.

please tell me you actually read the whole paper?
No transmission of any disease in experiment 1 when penned separately. Again who is going to house/tie there animals up with big horn sheep in the wild?

Also go back and highlight this
“All bighorn sheep kept in captivity under very similar conditions, but without contact with goats (experiment 1 pen 2) or in contact with M. ovipneumoniae-free goats (experi- ment 2, pen 1) did not develop signs of pneumonia.”

Again back to I’m not going to pen my goats up with wild bighorn sheep in the wild! Really that’s all you got? “All bighorn sheep kept in captivity under very similar conditions, but without contact with goats (experiment 1 pen 2) or in contact with M. ovipneumoniae-free goats (experi- ment 2, pen 1) did not develop signs of pneumonia.”

Also they actually had to take a nasal swab and inoculated to a Susceptible bighorn sheep? What’s the point of that?

“All bighorn sheep kept in captivity under very similar conditions, but without contact with goats (experiment 1 pen 2) or in contact with M. ovipneumoniae-free goats (experi- ment 2, pen 1) did not develop signs of pneumonia.”

Again all the pack goaters I know don’t pack with a goat that has pneumonia!

I’m totally ok with having all goats tested that are used for packing purposes before the season and mid season to prevent any outbreaks! Just have the wild sheep foundation set it up and I’ll stop by and they can test them and I’ll be on my way! Super simple
Matt

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I’m totally ok with having all goats tested that are used for packing purposes before the season and mid season to prevent any outbreaks!

I think that's the point, am I confident that Matt is going to make sure he isn't transmitting disease. Totally.

I'm worried about some other dude with no experience, that doesn't understand the issue, buying some goats out of the back of a truck and rolling up into sheep habitat.

Currently there aren't a ton of areas where you can't use goats, and there are a ton of places where domestic sheep allotments are contiguous with wild sheep habitat. Domestic sheep are definitely the bigger threat.

I think that pack goats and llamas for that matter are fine for elk hunting, but that guys who use them like you and I need to choose not to do so when hunting in certain areas.

I don't see the downside in acting with an abundance of caution.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@Duck-Slayer I’m planning a llama hunt in a sheep area for this fall so I’m a massive hypocrite... just FYI

 

[Pelican]

@Duck-Slayer I’m planning a llama hunt in a sheep area for this fall so I’m a massive hypocrite... just FYI

 

[Pelican]

Will mild pneumonia effect reproductive rates of ewes? Will survival of wild sheep with mild pneumonia be lower than survival of healthy sheep after a hard winter? What about lambs, can they survive it? Because a few captive sheep survived for 100 days with mild pneumonia contracted from goats doesn’t mean that there won’t be issues for wild sheep herds.

 

[Duck-Slayer]

I’m going with what the experts say, “All bighorn sheep kept in captivity under very similar conditions, but without contact with goats (experiment 1 pen 2) or in contact with M. ovipneumoniae-free goats (experi- ment 2, pen 1) did not develop signs of pneumonia.”
My movi free goats have no effect on bighorn sheep.
Matt

 

[Oak]

My movi free goats have no effect on bighorn sheep.

Good on you for having them tested. Who did it?

 

[Sytes]

A good read that accounts for the WSF, NAPGA, and the Pack Llama Trail Assoc(?).

AP News. A pretty neutral platform, least from my read of the article. Unless there has been studies since(?).

This may be my next *sled method for my backcountry endeavors. I'm interested.

Should pack llamas and goats be banned in bighorn country? Advocates disagree

Llamas and goats are an increasingly popular means of packing into the backcountry, but one that a major conservation organization fears could threaten wildlife. The Wild Sheep Foundation’s...

apnews.com