Nick87
Well-known member
Hell of a trip shrap.
Gettysburg
- Thread starter shrapnel
- Start date
Sheltowee
Well-known member
Probably a little dry but the generation of history works written in the first 50 or so years after the war, when there were still quite a few Civil War veterans still living, are pretty cool artifacts in their own right.
In the same vein, the books written by ranking officers are good for birdseye views of campaigns (or at least their writers’ biased reminiscences of them, haha) but the memoirs and diaries of enlisted men and junior officers have always been much more interesting to me.
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
At least from the more recent conflicts, I have most enjoyed the books written by embedded authors/journalist. Just the right balance of objective observer and still in the nitty gritty.
Have you read the Army at Dawn Series? It’s WW2, but an amazing narrative. Great balance of the general’s and sergeant’s views.
44hunter45
Well-known member
Interesting thread. My people come from both sides of the conflict. Growing up in California, I was always shocked how many still, "Smelled the powder burning."
It is in my signature. "Besides, there is no king, be his cause never so spotless, if it come to the arbitrament of swords, can try it out with all unspotted soldiers."
Shakespeare -- Henry V
The only surviving letters I have seen are from an ancestor who died of wounds received at Elkhorn Tavern, AR. 1862. He served in the IOWA 4th Infantry. He was abandoned in a field hospital when the Union General ordered a retreat and decamped. I don't know about Officer's Oaths and treason. But I have strong ideas about cowardice and leaving men behind.
Samuel F Horn's letters plainly show that he at least believed he was fighting to free the slaves.
I find it difficult to wave one flag or the other. I look more into the minds of individuals who fought and those who decided they needed to raise armies. I look at what draws young men to enlist, and who does the flag waving, and who prints the enlistment posters. It is quite plausible to me that landowning lawyers in the State Houses were prepared to discuss Ordinances of Secession and economies, while they stirred the wrath of those local farm boys by telling them someone was coming to take something away from them. You sign an Ordinance of Secession to justify yourself. You raise an army not by grand ideals, but by convincing enough folks they must fight or lose what they hold dear.
We do it today, don't we? You can't watch a Youtube without some ad saying they are coming to take your guns, land, or children. Or they stole the election and democracy is dead.
I sure as hell don't think those warmongering bastards on Youtube intend to take up arms, only to profit through spreading fear.
Regarding the effectiveness of killing in history vs today and the sanctity of life:
In the book, "On Killing", Lt Col Dave Grossman discusses how US Army TRADOC studied fire and hit rates of soldiers from the Civil War through the Korean Conflict. They mathematically analyzed the number of rounds expended per enemy casualty in each of these conflicts. They determined the rounds/kill ratio historically was too high and tasked TRADOC with improving it. They set out to train the natural human resistance to killing out of our soldiers beginning in Viet Nam.
He points out a large percentage Civil War Muskets recovered from Gettysburg were found to have as many as a dozen unfired paper cartridges rammed home but never capped. Even while charging into the face of the Union lines, these soldiers were not firing their rifles.
These same studies showed the propensity of soldiers to fire over the heads of enemies.
It is in my signature. "Besides, there is no king, be his cause never so spotless, if it come to the arbitrament of swords, can try it out with all unspotted soldiers."
Shakespeare -- Henry V
The only surviving letters I have seen are from an ancestor who died of wounds received at Elkhorn Tavern, AR. 1862. He served in the IOWA 4th Infantry. He was abandoned in a field hospital when the Union General ordered a retreat and decamped. I don't know about Officer's Oaths and treason. But I have strong ideas about cowardice and leaving men behind.
Samuel F Horn's letters plainly show that he at least believed he was fighting to free the slaves.
I find it difficult to wave one flag or the other. I look more into the minds of individuals who fought and those who decided they needed to raise armies. I look at what draws young men to enlist, and who does the flag waving, and who prints the enlistment posters. It is quite plausible to me that landowning lawyers in the State Houses were prepared to discuss Ordinances of Secession and economies, while they stirred the wrath of those local farm boys by telling them someone was coming to take something away from them. You sign an Ordinance of Secession to justify yourself. You raise an army not by grand ideals, but by convincing enough folks they must fight or lose what they hold dear.
We do it today, don't we? You can't watch a Youtube without some ad saying they are coming to take your guns, land, or children. Or they stole the election and democracy is dead.
I sure as hell don't think those warmongering bastards on Youtube intend to take up arms, only to profit through spreading fear.
Regarding the effectiveness of killing in history vs today and the sanctity of life:
In the book, "On Killing", Lt Col Dave Grossman discusses how US Army TRADOC studied fire and hit rates of soldiers from the Civil War through the Korean Conflict. They mathematically analyzed the number of rounds expended per enemy casualty in each of these conflicts. They determined the rounds/kill ratio historically was too high and tasked TRADOC with improving it. They set out to train the natural human resistance to killing out of our soldiers beginning in Viet Nam.
He points out a large percentage Civil War Muskets recovered from Gettysburg were found to have as many as a dozen unfired paper cartridges rammed home but never capped. Even while charging into the face of the Union lines, these soldiers were not firing their rifles.
These same studies showed the propensity of soldiers to fire over the heads of enemies.
shrapnel
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Fredericksburg, the third battle to claim the bloodiest battle. Antietam, Gettysburg and now Fredericksburg, each with their own dimension…
VikingsGuy
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What a great trip - loving the pics
Sheltowee
Well-known member
Yes, Atkinson is very good. He wrote a pretty solid one on the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003 IIRC. For my money, anything by Antony Beevor for the ETO, Ian Toll's Pacific War trilogy or Hornfischer's Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors/Neptune's Inferno are the best writing on WWII.
shrapnel
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Chatham House/Union hospital during Battle of Fredericksburg…
shrapnel
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Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Chancellorsville…
shrapnel
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Ending up in DC and a picture of the Lincoln Memorial.
I had some expectations of learning and seeing some American history, but nothing of this magnitude. From the beginning, I was impressed with the beauty of this part of America. The drive around Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Virginia, was spectacular. The roads were great and the scenery was beautiful.
I have to thank a branch of our federal government, the National Park Service for buying, protecting, restoring and maintaining so much of these Civil War battlefields. To be able to visit these sites, look down from Cemetery Ridge to the trees where Lee sent Pickett’s charge against the Union solders across an open field with little change from how it was in July of 1863.
I came away with little condemnation of either side. Like the Indian wars of the 1860’s through the 1890’s, it is hard to find blame for any man fighting for his principles and way of life. There was a lot more to life in those days than most people can understand that led to the Civil War. Visiting battles and museums, it is clear that the Civil War was about slavery. It is also clear that Abe Lincoln wasn’t the idiot or evil person some people make him out to be.
Probably the most impressive site that instills the real image of the war is the Devils Den, that to me, even though they say it was a staged picture, depicts the loneliness that existed in a war where tens of thousands of solders fought on so many fronts for those years.
Although their actions have been immortalized in prose and poetry, their names have been lost in the dust in the aftermath of the battle ending up in mass graves, forgotten to time and purpose. So many lives cut short and ruined over the inability to settle any conflicting ideologies without war, at such a great cost.
Trying to understand the battles in relationship to how the war was fought, leaves me still guessing. The brilliance of the leaders of both sides is evident on the way they clashed and responded to those conflicts. I didn’t go there with any idea of finding fault with any general on either side nor criticize and speculate how they should have done better. All that inconsequential “if he did that it would have been different” theoretical analysis is for others that don’t appreciate history. I wanted to find out what happened, not what could have happened.
I was also looking to find how much George Custer contributed to the war and realized how influential he was and how he changed the outdated philosophy of the purpose of Cavalry and he made the Cavalry into a very decisive tool for the Union Army. The battles he participated in and the difference he made was even greater than I had imagined.
The Civil War was fought on many fronts, and to see so many major conflicts in such a compact part of America, it was hard to believe I travel farther to hunt turkeys in Montana than I traveled in Maryland, Pennsylvania and Virginia. The history of the West is compelling and most interesting to me, but to see this part of the United States and realize what it cost to keep it united, I have a greater admiration for all those that fought for the North and South…
I had some expectations of learning and seeing some American history, but nothing of this magnitude. From the beginning, I was impressed with the beauty of this part of America. The drive around Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Virginia, was spectacular. The roads were great and the scenery was beautiful.
I have to thank a branch of our federal government, the National Park Service for buying, protecting, restoring and maintaining so much of these Civil War battlefields. To be able to visit these sites, look down from Cemetery Ridge to the trees where Lee sent Pickett’s charge against the Union solders across an open field with little change from how it was in July of 1863.
I came away with little condemnation of either side. Like the Indian wars of the 1860’s through the 1890’s, it is hard to find blame for any man fighting for his principles and way of life. There was a lot more to life in those days than most people can understand that led to the Civil War. Visiting battles and museums, it is clear that the Civil War was about slavery. It is also clear that Abe Lincoln wasn’t the idiot or evil person some people make him out to be.
Probably the most impressive site that instills the real image of the war is the Devils Den, that to me, even though they say it was a staged picture, depicts the loneliness that existed in a war where tens of thousands of solders fought on so many fronts for those years.
Although their actions have been immortalized in prose and poetry, their names have been lost in the dust in the aftermath of the battle ending up in mass graves, forgotten to time and purpose. So many lives cut short and ruined over the inability to settle any conflicting ideologies without war, at such a great cost.
Trying to understand the battles in relationship to how the war was fought, leaves me still guessing. The brilliance of the leaders of both sides is evident on the way they clashed and responded to those conflicts. I didn’t go there with any idea of finding fault with any general on either side nor criticize and speculate how they should have done better. All that inconsequential “if he did that it would have been different” theoretical analysis is for others that don’t appreciate history. I wanted to find out what happened, not what could have happened.
I was also looking to find how much George Custer contributed to the war and realized how influential he was and how he changed the outdated philosophy of the purpose of Cavalry and he made the Cavalry into a very decisive tool for the Union Army. The battles he participated in and the difference he made was even greater than I had imagined.
The Civil War was fought on many fronts, and to see so many major conflicts in such a compact part of America, it was hard to believe I travel farther to hunt turkeys in Montana than I traveled in Maryland, Pennsylvania and Virginia. The history of the West is compelling and most interesting to me, but to see this part of the United States and realize what it cost to keep it united, I have a greater admiration for all those that fought for the North and South…
44hunter45
Well-known member
What a great trip you're having!
It's been over 20 years since I've toured the battlefields. I'm jealous.
It's been over 20 years since I've toured the battlefields. I'm jealous.
Sheltowee
Well-known member
Great thread and great trip, Shrap. Thank you for sharing.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
With your wonderful photos, respectful descriptions, and this concluding recap and personal perspective, you could put together a very nice publication for tabletop dissemination and for your own documentation of a great tour and historical close look on-the-grounds.
shrapnel
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Too little of today’s interchanges are positive and meaningful. It was something I wanted to see and do, it was also well received without the criticism that seems to invade social media these days. Hopefully some new insight might be enjoyed by the members of HuntTalk.
I appreciate the information shared and other’s perspective from what they have experienced as well…
44hunter45
Well-known member
I was thinking about the Aurora Borealis display last night and the scene from the movie Gettysburg where Lee and his men see them. I went down the rabbit hole to see if this was based in any actual fact. It turns out this is from a real event that happened after Fredericksburg in December 1862.
BTW- If you want to debate Blue vs Grey, this is the place. Lots of raucous discussion on here:
BTW- If you want to debate Blue vs Grey, this is the place. Lots of raucous discussion on here:
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