shrapnel
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2015
- Messages
- 2,574
As I continue to visit Civil War battlefields and museums, it is clear that the Civil War was about slavery. What little history I paid attention to in school didn’t support that premise…
Gettysburg
- Thread starter shrapnel
- Start date
Kentucky Jack
Active member
I would have to disagree with you on the slavery being the reason. Most confederate soldiers never owned a slave. They fought because they were invaded by a tyrannical government mainly Lincoln. Remember it was not against the united states' declaration to secede. That's why after the war they were all paroled and given amnesty. Many former Confederates held federal jobs and government positions after the war. Anyone who say's confederates we're traitors as I've read in other post's absolutely no nothing about what they are talking about. Taxes on cotton and the unfair election of Lincoln is what caused the war. Slavery became a biproduct mainly for Lincoln's re election. Sometimes bad things eventually produce something good as in the civil war.
seeth07
Well-known member
Reread what he wrote, you missed his point by a mile.
seeth07
Well-known member
I really feel that is a strong statement and being of a much younger generation I can only know from what I've read and heard about what it was like during the time of WWII and shortly there afterwards. Perhaps it is this togetherness and unification as a nation that makes those of that time (generation) the "greatest".
Look at how our nation is today - huge gaps in ideals between the living generations with most topics having polarizing opinions. Instead of a nation strongly supporting a war effort through labor and military service with hopes that their efforts will lead to faster victory, the people of "serving" age instead whine, blog, protest and cause riots which serves little to no actual purpose in resolving the war/conflict.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
Simply embarrassing that the ridiculous narrative spun by the "Lost Cause" folks still holds in the minds of some Americans. A few excerpts from the Confederate states ordinances/articles of succession may serve as a good reminder from their own mouths:
Mississippi Ordinance of Secession adopted January 9, 1861
“Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery – the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition . . .”
Texas Ordinance of Secession February 23, 1861, popular vote 46,153 in favor, 14,747 against.
“In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color – a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.
....
“We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.
. . . .
“That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.
Georgia Ordinance of Secession adopted January 19, 1861
“The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slaveholding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. “
....
“The question of slavery was the great difficulty in the way of the formation of the Constitution. While the subordination and the political and social inequality of the African race was fully conceded by all, it was plainly apparent that slavery would soon disappear from what are now the non-slave-holding States of the original thirteen. The opposition to slavery was then, as now, general in those States and the Constitution was made with direct reference to that fact. . . . .”
Caseknife
Well-known member
Very well said. Those of us that had parents that lived through the Great Depression and the hardships they went though, believe that was the Greatest Generation.
shrapnel
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2015
- Messages
- 2,574
While in the area, a few other early American sights. Colonial Williamsburg…
Handlebar
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2014
- Messages
- 303
I have been to couple of Civil War battlefields but not Gettysburg I hope to go some day. The bravery of men on both sides is humbling and awe inspiring. Chamberlains heroic bayonet charge off of Little Round top and Pickets ill-fated march across an open field make me realize how little I would measure up.
There is no doubt that the elite planter power structure within the South went to war over a desire to perpetuate slavery, the idea that average Confederate soldier was fighting to preserve an economic system that he did not benefit from and was in fact harmed by i.e. Free labor vs paid is absurd. The novelist and historian Shelby Foote who was involved with the Ken Burns documentary stated that soldiers on both sides did not give a damn about the slaves and fought for many varied reasons. Foote is both venerated by some and chastised by others, but the idea that soldiers on either side rallied around a single set of ideals seems ludicrous to me and that thinking is colored by our more recent history when the entire country was gathered around to defeat and punish the Japanese.
I was very hesitant to post anything concerning the war. I am a Southron born and raised in Georgia, and we are supposed to ashamed of what our forebears did. To paraphrase Lewis Grizzard, I come from a long line of sharecroppers, and mill workers and to the best of my knowledge none of my ancestors owned any slaves. Folks in my family line wore grey, I supposed that they thought what they were doing was right. Not for slavery, because they did not have but because they thought it was the right thing to do. For whatever reason they saw fit to go and fight and I see them as gallant and brave and they were a frightful force until they were defeated. I will not turn on my heritage nor am I ashamed.
I have always found it confounding that Confederates are disparaged as traitors when to the best of my knowledge there was no prohibition against secession and their fathers and grandfathers who did the very same thing (rebel against the legitimate authority) against the British Crown are venerated. Whatever their reason both abhorrent and other.
I am not a Lost Causer and I don't want to fight the war again or go back to old days not forgotten. I do believe it is much easier to hold up the South as that backward despicable part of the country that helps folks from other parts not acknowledge the terrible things that were done in all sections of the country
Back to the intent of original post, I am very jealous shrapnel that you were able to visit that hallowed ground, and one question is the table in Appomattox courthouse the one that Robert E. Lee signed the surrender on? If so, it must have been given back to the government by Elizabeth Custer? My recollection is the Gen. Custer purchased that desk.
There is no doubt that the elite planter power structure within the South went to war over a desire to perpetuate slavery, the idea that average Confederate soldier was fighting to preserve an economic system that he did not benefit from and was in fact harmed by i.e. Free labor vs paid is absurd. The novelist and historian Shelby Foote who was involved with the Ken Burns documentary stated that soldiers on both sides did not give a damn about the slaves and fought for many varied reasons. Foote is both venerated by some and chastised by others, but the idea that soldiers on either side rallied around a single set of ideals seems ludicrous to me and that thinking is colored by our more recent history when the entire country was gathered around to defeat and punish the Japanese.
I was very hesitant to post anything concerning the war. I am a Southron born and raised in Georgia, and we are supposed to ashamed of what our forebears did. To paraphrase Lewis Grizzard, I come from a long line of sharecroppers, and mill workers and to the best of my knowledge none of my ancestors owned any slaves. Folks in my family line wore grey, I supposed that they thought what they were doing was right. Not for slavery, because they did not have but because they thought it was the right thing to do. For whatever reason they saw fit to go and fight and I see them as gallant and brave and they were a frightful force until they were defeated. I will not turn on my heritage nor am I ashamed.
I have always found it confounding that Confederates are disparaged as traitors when to the best of my knowledge there was no prohibition against secession and their fathers and grandfathers who did the very same thing (rebel against the legitimate authority) against the British Crown are venerated. Whatever their reason both abhorrent and other.
I am not a Lost Causer and I don't want to fight the war again or go back to old days not forgotten. I do believe it is much easier to hold up the South as that backward despicable part of the country that helps folks from other parts not acknowledge the terrible things that were done in all sections of the country
Back to the intent of original post, I am very jealous shrapnel that you were able to visit that hallowed ground, and one question is the table in Appomattox courthouse the one that Robert E. Lee signed the surrender on? If so, it must have been given back to the government by Elizabeth Custer? My recollection is the Gen. Custer purchased that desk.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
The notion that we southerners should feel guilty is as foolish as any northerner appropriating moral superiority.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
I have no interest in the concept of inherited culpability. Whatever my great great grandfather did or did not do in Norway has nothing to do with me, that's all on him. But in turn, those alive today are responsible for their own educated understanding of history. No need to pretend about actions of the past to make us feel better about ourselves today. So, along the lines of this thread -- a confederate officer in 1863 can be a traitor -- and a vinyl siding salesman in Atlanta in 2024 can be a patriotic American -- no need for whitewashing the traitor of 1863.
Handlebar
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2014
- Messages
- 303
I agree with you on the concept of inherited culpability. I disagree with you that the officer was a traitor.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
...now we are but debating the size of the brush counselor
BrentD
Well-known member
Exactly, so let us dispense with the northerners and southerner labels.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
Then why the need for Tennessean President Johnson to pardon them in 1868 -- from the pardon -- "a full pardon and amnesty for the offense of treason against the United States".
Why? Because while there was much treasonous behavior, we couldn't imprison tens of thousands of men on the heels of the national disaster. So, we agreed to move on.
And Union Gen. George Thomas accurately predicted the future in 1868: “The crime of treason might be covered with a counterfeit varnish of patriotism, so that the precipitators of the rebellion might go down in history hand-in-hand with the defenders of the (US) Government."
While I support the pragmatism of the pardon, I reject the "counterfeit varnish".
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
Nope - just rejecting the unnecessary layer of varnish.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
ah, the pungent smell of intransigence in the morning. Sorry my esteemed friend, you're simply wrong.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Yea, sort of my point Brent.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
Simply wrong that General Lee violated his oath to, "bear true allegiant to the United States of America"? Please do educate this apparently clueless Norwegian immigrant.
Handlebar
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2014
- Messages
- 303
To the victors go the spoils
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Your words, not mine...let the paint dry and step out of your corner
Similar threads
- Poll
