Getting nervous about Trump!

[JWP58]

I could go into the weeds on each of these, and more, but I'm afraid we will now be inundated with, and distracted by all the “Yeah, but . . . “ arguments complaining about the commie welfare moms in Chicago who are dragging this country down and how Bernie wants to give everything away for free.
.

So you mean we'd be distracted by the truth? Wouldn't that be something.

Oh he wants us to "invest in ourselves". Ya I do that, with the money I earn. Everyone else can do the same, if they choose to do so. Of course Bernie, you know "invest in ourselves" "for the greater good" guy, that thinks food ration lines are a great thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJBjjP8WSbc

The other countries must be the full blown communists. In the U.S. where people have disposable income to donate to charities/churches, and donate their time to help provide for those without. That doesn't happen in a socialist/commie hell hole. The glorious government provides everything, of course by stealing from its people.

Sorry, no bleeding heart here. Socialism is a great idea in a fantasy utopia, but this is the real world. I'll choose to keep my earnings, and do with them as I see fit. If I want to "invest" in someone, I'll make that choice.

 

[James Riley]

I'll choose to keep my earnings, and do with them as I see fit. If I want to "invest" in someone, I'll make that choice.

Uh, no, you won't. You'll invest in what the 1% tells you to invest in: Them. And they've convinced you it's the right thing to do. LOL!

 

[JWP58]

Uh, no, you won't. You'll invest in what the 1% tells you to invest in: Them. And they've convinced you it's the right thing to do. LOL!

Hmmm Ya...ok. Sorry Uncle Bernie's commie talking points aren't going to work. Let me guess, I'd be better off handing over 70% of my income to the government and letting them decide what is best for me? That's a pretty easy thing for comrade Sanders to say, since the only legit job he has ever had is being a politician.

 

[James Riley]

Hmmm Ya...ok. Sorry Uncle Bernie's commie talking points aren't going to work. Let me guess, I'd be better off handing over 70% of my income to the government and letting them decide what is best for me? That's a pretty easy thing for comrade Sanders to say, since the only legit job he has ever had is being a politician.

That just shows how much you don't know about Sanders or socialism. But hey, what can we expect from a high-fence private land shooter of "game" farm animals who wants to turn all public land and wildlife over to the private sector?

 

[Rob Allen]

I think the best we can hope for is a deeply split government. So that neither side can push their agenda.

Even if we sold off all public lands to pay off debt we'd be right back where we are now in a decade because we won't end the spending.

 

[JWP58]

That just shows how much you don't know about Sanders or socialism. But hey, what can we expect from a high-fence private land shooter of "game" farm animals who wants to turn all public land and wildlife over to the private sector?

And that would be? Haven't hunted private land since I moved west. I love public land, sorry (one reason I could never support cruz) I've never hunted or even set foot behind a high fence.

OK enlighten me, tell me how great socialism is, and inform me on what I don't know about comrade bernie. Please explain to me why people feel that the government should care and provide for them from cradle to grave. I'm guessing that you hand over most of your earnings voluntarily already for the greater good?

 

[Tufrthnails]

I think the best we can hope for is a deeply split government. So that neither side can push their agenda.

Even if we sold off all public lands to pay off debt we'd be right back where we are now in a decade because we won't end the spending.

Yep I equate the government budget to a family budget when talking to people. Several of my friends have seen me go from DEEP in debt to being very comfortable and it took a concentrated effort using the snowball method. So many of them have asked for help and we have setup their budgets down to the penny and have had no success because they could not make the lifestyle change required for it to work.

 

[James Riley]

I love public land, sorry (one reason I could never support cruz) I've never hunted or even set foot behind a high fence.

OK enlighten me, tell me how great socialism is, and inform me on what I don't know about comrade bernie.

Wait, what? How can you support state ownership of the means of production? Doesn't that make you a communist? You should be supporting private-for-profit capitalist game farms. Public land and wildlife is direct socialist government competition with poor folks who are just trying to make a living off their land. These lands and wildlife should be sold to the highest bidder (you know, the 1%) so they can employ good, God Fearing Americans, pay wages, invest in themselves and charge fair-market value for us to shoot an elk all doped up on steroids and bred for big antlers. That's capitalism.

Okay, in all seriousness, if you read my previous post then you will recall my reference to fifty shades of grey. Socialism is not what Rush Limbaugh tells you it is with his talking points about communism, etc. Further, if you do some research about the effective tax rate in this nation when we were at our apex, and how government created the interstate highway system, rural electric authorities, public education and this list goes on for freaking ever. We ARE a socialist country, at least in part. Especially when you consider how much the private sector socializes some of their costs. And how much of our government-funded university research ends up under private patent and sold back to us in the pharmacies under inflated prices which are said to be necessary to fund research? And why does Wal-Mart have HR people counseling employees on how to get food stamps and other welfare to supplement their meager wages? Isn't this YOU subsidizing Wal-Mart?

Anyway, Sanders is merely a response to the failures of capitalist to act like capitalists. Unless and until you want socialism, I suggest you get your so-called "capitalist" buddies to start paying their way, acting like capitalists, internalizing their costs, etc. Either that or they can stay off our highways, public lands, airwaves, etc. They can go to Somalia if they want de-regulation and privatization. Otherwise, they are the epitome of socialism and they take WAY more than all the welfare moms in Chicago.

So, you see, this is not in defense of socialism so much as it is an indictment of those ungrateful Bs who pretend to hate socialism, all while being socialists and complaining about it when some poor sap tries to get on their gravy train. These hypocrites say grace but they don't live in grace. And that pisses some people off. And that's why so many liberals hate Hillary Clinton (and the other Republicans) and why they like Sanders. It's a phenomenon I call "push back." Sanders is "push back" and the longer the establishment get's their way, the harder the ultimate push back is going to be. Ask the queen and king of France. Sanders is a gentle reminder in comparison.

 

[JWP58]

So how much of your income are you willing to invest? 70? 80%? It's my personal belief that comrade bernie is hell bent on implementing the darkest shade of socialism. All you have to do is listen to his rhetoric to know he favors out right communism.

P.s. what you hate is crony capitalism, which most people don't like because it's people taking advantage of/corrupting the system. Begging the government to take your income is not the answer to fixing the problem.

(I'm not even going to touch the first paragraph of your last post, since it's just trolling)

 

[James Riley]

So how much of your income are you willing to invest? 70? 80%? It's my personal belief that comrade bernie is hell bent on implementing the darkest shade of socialism. All you have to do is listen to his rhetoric to know he favors out right communism.

P.s. what you hate is crony capitalism, which most people don't like because it's people taking advantage of/corrupting the system. Begging the government to take your income is not the answer to fixing the problem.

(I'm not even going to touch the first paragraph of your last post, since it's just trolling)

Regarding your last sentence, to quote my esteemed Hunt Talk opposition: "So you mean we'd be distracted by the truth? Wouldn't that be something." You can't live in an illogical, two-valued orientation (duelistic thinking) mind-set when dealing with complex shades of gray. It's not an either-or world. If we are going to play your game then YOU are a socialist, since YOU hunt state-owned wildlife on state-owned land. If you don't think the state should own the means of production, then why are you on the gravy train? Stay off the interstate and don't call the cops or the fire department, socialist.

As to your first paragraph, it would be progressive taxation, like we had when everyone did better. When everyone does better, everyone does better. Or, *enlightened* self-interest, as per the original understanding of capitalism.

As to your second paragraph, you are falling for (or trying to use) the old redefinition of terms. "Crony capitalism" is another shade of socialism. The only problem is, it's the darkest shade. Darker than anything Sanders could come up with. One side gets the benefits and they don't pay in their fair share. Now that Sanders is calling them on their hypocrisy, and seeking to make them pay, their apologists crawl out to their defense. Especially disconcerting when it comes from a guy in a van down by the river. But, whatever.

 

[Oneye]

To be honest, I'm nervous for either of our potential presidents. I'm glad Trump finally got Cruz out of the race and will most likely be the nominee, but I question how truthful he is at times. I really like Trump Jr. which is a big reason I hope his dad can be reasoned with by his sons. Gun control has been held over voters heads for years now, and it never seems to happen. Public lands is an argument that is not protected by any constitutional right, so it will be much easier to dismantle our public lands than to dismantle our 2nd amendment. Democrats have a good chance of taking over congress and the house. If they have the presidency, congress, and appoint the supreme court justices, things could get scary quickly. As of now, Trump is my choice, Clinton has said too many blatant things that scare me. I don't think we have a perfect choice, but I think we can survive 4 years of either of them, it just depends who you believe will be easier to survive. For me right now its Trump, but he could say a lot of things between here and November.

 

[Elkmagnet]

(I'm not even going to touch the first paragraph of your last post, since it's just trolling)

Kind of trolling yourself via contradiction.

 

[JWP58]

Regarding your last sentence, to quote my esteemed Hunt Talk opposition: "So you mean we'd be distracted by the truth? Wouldn't that be something." You can't live in an illogical, two-valued orientation (duelistic thinking) mind-set when dealing with complex shades of gray. It's not an either-or world. If we are going to play your game then YOU are a socialist, since YOU hunt state-owned wildlife on state-owned land. If you don't think the state should own the means of production, then why are you on the gravy train? Stay off the interstate and don't call the cops or the fire department, socialist.

Well then, how do I get my taxes back then? The issue with your loving communism is that we the people would be forced to fund programs that we don't use. I use the road, and I pay a tax to do so, same with fire, police, so on and so forth. Why should we be forced to pay for your food stamps, housing, college education, health care, and so forth? I shouldn't. But the commuinists have a different view point. And yes some of us believe there is already way too much socialism in this country already.

So you'd be willing to fork over 90% of your earnings in order to achieve this utopia you crave?

I'll do you one better, why would I even need to work once bernie is elected? I mean if the 1% is paying for everything...why work? Maybe that's a good idea, hmmm maybe comrade bernie is on to something....unless all those 1%ers might pack up and take their money elsewhere....well I doubt it.

I guess it's clear, bernie is the way to go.....what could go wrong? Will all be rich with "investments"!!!!

 

[MTGomer]

Socialist thinking : too few have control over far too much and they own the government, so give control to the government, who is owned by the few, and who is always, compassionate, moral, infinitely wise and virtuous.
As if there's not 1/4billion dead bodies from last century to display how failed this economic system is.
Looked at Venezuela lately?
Even if socialism wasn't inherently oppressive and often deadly, it's just not and American thing. This is supposed to be the land of making your American Dream, not sucking off the labor of others.
Nobody-rich or poor- is entitled to the work of someone else.
I don't say this to brag, but my wife and I are 25 years old, of average intelligence, come from middle class families, paid for our own college, and made $132k last year in Montana. (And I hunted around 40 days)
We made good choices, work hard, and I've worked places, and hours, in weather most aren't willing to do. There's no reason anybody can't do atleast half as well as we've done. I pay my fair share and then some. I just want what's mine, I don't need yours, and don't think anybody's 18 year old is entitled to mine, to get a degree. Eating ramen noodles and working a few 85 hour weeks while finishing school online didn't kill me and it won't kill them

If some of my fellow millennials spent half as much time working hard as they do trying to be activists for free stuff, they'd be doing a lot better.

James is right though... We have a current system that favors mega-corps and punishes the little guy. It's not pure capitalism.

I hate crony corporatism/capitalism too. I think all corporate welfare should be cut. Let them sink or swim in a real market. As Bernie says.. 'Too big to fail, too big to exist'.

 

[Straight Arrow]

So you'd be willing to fork over 90% of your earnings in order to achieve this utopia you crave?

JWP58 Seriously? Is that a sincere question or a mega-misinterpretation?

 

[James Riley]

Well then, how do I get my taxes back then? The issue with your loving communism is that we the people would be forced to fund programs that we don't use. I use the road, and I pay a tax to do so, same with fire, police, so on and so forth. Why should we be forced to pay for your food stamps, housing, college education, health care, and so forth? I shouldn't. But the commuinists have a different view point. And yes some of us believe there is already way too much socialism in this country already.

So you'd be willing to fork over 90% of your earnings in order to achieve this utopia you crave?

I'll do you one better, why would I even need to work once bernie is elected? I mean if the 1% is paying for everything...why work? Maybe that's a good idea, hmmm maybe comrade bernie is on to something....unless all those 1%ers might pack up and take their money elsewhere....well I doubt it.

I guess it's clear, bernie is the way to go.....what could go wrong? Will all be rich with "investments"!!!!

Taxes are not user fees. That's not the way the social contract works. If I didn't have to pay taxes for all the crap I disagree with or that I don't use, then gee, wouldn't that be nice. If we totaled all the subsidy and benefits of society (socialism) that go to your crony capitalists, it would absolutely dwarf all the social programs and even the defense budget. Hell, the country doesn't even fund itself as it is. The deficits we run are allowed by the petro-dollar and the fact that most of the world trades on our currency. We are the bank and we print the money. But I digress. Quite simply, you trying to get your taxes back by hunting public wildlife on public land is no different than a welfare recipient deciding he doesn't want to contribute to the crony capitalists and deciding he's going to get his.

what you hate is crony capitalism, which most people don't like because it's people taking advantage of/corrupting the system. Begging the government to take your income is not the answer to fixing the problem.

JWP58: I'm going to cede the floor to you. However, before I go, I want to address this last point you made. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. What, exactly, do you propose we should do about it? 1. We've been on notice since the 1870s, at least (Rise of the Barons). 2. Everyone knows the problem with "too big to fail" and "too big to jail". 3. Those who are "too big" are beyond taxation, regulation and prosecution. Prosecutors won't prosecute, and half the "crimes" aren't crimes because they've been lobbied and legislated not to be.

The "establishment", the Parties, and the Corporate Media are owned by those who are "too big" and thus, nothing has been, or ever will be done about it unless "the people" do something about it.

However, whenever we use the words "the people", it seems to scare folks like you on the right, and when it comes to fascism, it scares folks on the left. But it doesn't help when you defend the very people who are "too big", and when you invoke their talking points against the only people who are trying to do anything about it. I'm no big fan of people myself, mainly because most of them are like you. But I'd still trust you over the folks you are defending. Rather than attack socialism, why don't you fix the problem that socialist are responding to? If you fixed it, there would be no socialists. You call it crony capitalism? Okay, get rid of it and Sanders will go away. Good luck getting "the people" to change things without an effort unite "the people". If crony capitalism has rigged the system so representative *democracy* is dead, and the capitalist have turned half of us against each other with the socialist argument, it's going to take a revolution. Sanders is proposing a peaceful one.

Trump and Sanders are the closest we've come, and even they had to operate within the Party system to gain any traction. Even if Sanders is not the answer, don't you think it's to be expected that someone like him might come along and have some appeal? After all, the people and the actions that YOU would propose as an answer have failed miserably. In short, "you've" had your chance. You failed. "The people" are starting to stir. They are a direct result of your failure to fix a problem you admit exists.

In short: Don't like socialism? Fix the problems that give rise to it. You fail to fix it at your peril. If you hate socialism, you fail to fix the system at our peril because the socialist are coming. Take the wind out of their sails or pay the price.

 

[jryoung]

Well then, how do I get my taxes back then?

You don't because companies like my former client have a 2% cash tax rate on a $750m in US profits. We need you to keep paying.

 

[James Riley]

Socialist thinking : too few have control over far too much and they own the government, so give control to the government, who is owned by the few, and who is always, compassionate, moral, infinitely wise and virtuous.

Actually, in a socialist democracy "the government" is not owned by the few. It's owned by the people. In our representative democracy, too few have control over too much. It didn't have to be that way, but that is the way we have let it become. Now the few have made it so the people can't do S about it because the few own the media and they own the Parties which own the representatives.

Anyway, I'm out of this argument people. Trump or Sanders. Anyone else is more of the same. Sorry about the baby but it's stuck to the bathwater and the bathwater has to go.

 

[MTGomer]

In socialist ideology and utopia, you're correct, but history shows us time and time again that in reality socialism is not for the socialist. It is for the peasants. Socialism is the height of tyranny and takes force and coercion to implement.
In a libertarian society folks could voluntarily be a part of a socialist group of they liked. I have no problem with that.
I have a problem with government goons forcing me to participate with an assault rifle at my head.

That said, I still want trump or sanders. Bring the establishment to their knees. Too bad they can't be beheaded for 100 years of treason and theft while they're down there.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Well then, how do I get my taxes back then? The issue with your loving communism is that we the people would be forced to fund programs that we don't use. I use the road, and I pay a tax to do so, same with fire, police, so on and so forth. Why should we be forced to pay for your food stamps, housing, college education, health care, and so forth? I shouldn't. But the commuinists have a different view point. And yes some of us believe there is already way too much socialism in this country already.

So it's ok as long as it's somethingyou will use.

Crystal clear

Otherwise= Hitler blah blah blah

Fyi the vast majority of people who are paying for the public ground you hunt will never step foot on it.