Geothermal Heat Pump

[grizzly_]

Does anybody have experience with geothermal heat pumps for homes? We're considering building a new home and have been looking at geothermal for HVAC but are having a hard time figuring out of people like it, if it's cost efficient (the new house would be geothermal or propane) and what to expect in upfront costs.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Dougfirtree]

Does anybody have experience with geothermal heat pumps for homes? We're considering building a new home and have been looking at geothermal for HVAC but are having a hard time figuring out of people like it, if it's cost efficient (the new house would be geothermal or propane) and what to expect in upfront costs.

Thanks for your help.

I've had one for about 11 years. My costs are probably outdated. In terms of operation, it's the bomb. It heats and cools our house with zero effort and very efficiently. The house is well insulated and the yearly heating cost (electric bill) was about $350 per year when I actually calculated it (probably 7 or 8 years ago). The upfront investment is substantial. Back then, I think it was about $25,000 (including the well drilling, etc.)

 

[passinthru]

We're on year 9 with ours. No well for us, just 5 loops going out a couple of hundred feet and looping back. They were directional bored at 17' to 20' deep then horizontally after that. I figured it would be an 8-10 year payback when I was researching it.

It paid for itself in less than 4 years. At the time they had the 30% tax credit and Lp spiked one year, so it paid back quite a bit sooner than we'd initially thought. I was apprehensive at first but very glad we did it.

 

[grizzly_]

Thank you @Dougfirtree.

@passinthru, thank you, do you remember what the initial cost was?

The reason I ask is I'm seeing online prices in the $30k +/- range, but I was just quoted $200,000 for a Water Furnace 6-ton 7-Series on a horizontal loop. I almost choked when he told me that. I'm thinking he was either seriously mistaken or I'm missing something about GSHP. There's no way I'm paying anywhere close to that.

I'm glad you guys are so happy with yours as it gives me confidence in the system; now if I can only find a reasonable installer in the Northern Utah/Southern Idaho area.

 

[Dougfirtree]

We're on year 9 with ours. No well for us, just 5 loops going out a couple of hundred feet and looping back. They were directional bored at 17' to 20' deep then horizontally after that. I figured it would be an 8-10 year payback when I was researching it.

It paid for itself in less than 4 years. At the time they had the 30% tax credit and Lp spiked one year, so it paid back quite a bit sooner than we'd initially thought. I was apprehensive at first but very glad we did it.

I have a friend who's an excavator and he did something similar; dug up his whole yard and buried horizontal pipes looping around the whole space, just 5 feet down, or so. It was cheap for him, as he had the equipment.
I also know a couple who have a spring-fed farm pond up behind their house and they were able to install a system just using the pond water, which was even cheaper. It's a pretty cool idea.

 

[Caseknife]

If you have the room, the system can be buried in backhoe dug ditches. If you have no room, such as on a single lot, you would need to drill. Believe you just have to get below the frost line to get ground temp, not sure.

 

[passinthru]

It was right at 35,000. 5 ton Bosch unit. Our local electric coop had a rebate based on the unit size along with the tax credit and lp savings it has worked out well. The tax credit is a big deal, much better than a deduction.

 

[Dougfirtree]

Thank you @Dougfirtree.

@passinthru, thank you, do you remember what the initial cost was?

The reason I ask is I'm seeing online prices in the $30k +/- range, but I was just quoted $200,000 for a Water Furnace 6-ton 7-Series on a horizontal loop. I almost choked when he told me that. I'm thinking he was either seriously mistaken or I'm missing something about GSHP. There's no way I'm paying anywhere close to that.

I'm glad you guys are so happy with yours as it gives me confidence in the system; now if I can only find a reasonable installer in the Northern Utah/Southern Idaho area.

I wonder if the machines are in short supply right now? That's crazy. Other than the heat pump, it's just a bunch of PVC pipe and digging/drilling...

 

[passinthru]

It also costs almost nothing to cool the house in the summer.

 

[passinthru]

I looked into it for a 24,000 square foot shop last year, and that was about $250,000. So I'd say something is a little wonky with your quote.

 

[warmer]

Worked on my first Geo in 1988. Still sell, install and service them today. I'd come to Idaho to do a house for 200K! BUT, I don't know your house size, lot size or any one of a hundred different factors involved in pricing, sizing or installation. Units are out about 2-4 months, which isn't a big deal if you decide before you start building. YMMV

 

[grizzly_]

Worked on my first Geo in 1988. Still sell, install and service them today. I'd come to Idaho to do a house for 200K! BUT, I don't know your house size, lot size or any one of a hundred different factors involved in pricing, sizing or installation. Units are out about 2-4 months, which isn't a big deal if you decide before you start building. YMMV

That's awesome that you've been working on geothermal for that long, I wish you lived closer!

My plans aren't finalized, but the home is less than 4,000 sq ft and, though load calcs aren't done, the architect thinks it will call for about a 6-ton unit. I've got three acres of flat ground so area for a horizontal loop isn't a concern. My plan is to dedicate that part of the yard to GSHP and solar panels.

From what I've seen online, it seems around $35k should be fairly close, does that sound correct to you?

Also, I've been told the WaterFurnace brand is the best, do you have any thoughts on brands to consider or stay away from?

I hope it's okay that I'm picking your brain, I appreciate your wisdom!

 

[Steiny77]

We put in an open loop water source geothermal heat pump in our home maybe ten years ago per the advice of the HVAC contractor. We did not like that system very much. It's good for cooling, but when used for heating, the heat coming out of ducts never felt warm enough. The house always felt cold. Also seemed pretty silly to be using all of that water and just dumping it out.

Did a big remodel this year and replaced the HVAC with basic forced air gas fired heat, electric AC system(s) and like it much better. We also upgraded the insulation incredibly and replaced all windows and doors so that made a big difference as well.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

We have an open loop system (pumps from well and dumps water into yard). I'm not sure this setup is allowed anymore for new systems. This is in MN, not the arid west. Heat pump was 23 years old when we bought the house and needed occasional maintenance so we replaced it last year. A new 4 ton heat pump was $12.5k installed (2021) and it heats/cools our not particularly energy efficient 2500 SF home well.

 

[warmer]

That's awesome that you've been working on geothermal for that long, I wish you lived closer!

My plans aren't finalized, but the home is less than 4,000 sq ft and, though load calcs aren't done, the architect thinks it will call for about a 6-ton unit. I've got three acres of flat ground so area for a horizontal loop isn't a concern. My plan is to dedicate that part of the yard to GSHP and solar panels.

From what I've seen online, it seems around $35k should be fairly close, does that sound correct to you?

Also, I've been told the WaterFurnace brand is the best, do you have any thoughts on brands to consider or stay away from?

I hope it's okay that I'm picking your brain, I appreciate your wisdom!

I'm thinking the 35-40k range is more in the ballpark. But the duct installation might be tough or time consuming. It would take a significant structure to get to 200k.
We use Geo-comfort, actually assembled only 60 miles away from me, in Mitchell, SD. The Hydron Module is also mfg in the same plant. Hydron has stainless steel cabinet and Geocomfort has painted cabinet. Thats the only difference.
Can't say I believe Water Furnace is the "best", but they are a reliable unit that has been around very long. Florida Heat Pump also makes a good unit. My unsolicited advice: Be more concerned about your contractor/installer than the brand of equipment. Your about to enter into a 20 year relationship him/her and you want someone who has experience and will be around when you need it fixed. And that peace of mind comes with a premium.

 

[Steve in Canton]

I'm thinking the 35-40k range is more in the ballpark. But the duct installation might be tough or time consuming. It would take a significant structure to get to 200k.
We use Geo-comfort, actually assembled only 60 miles away from me, in Mitchell, SD. The Hydron Module is also mfg in the same plant. Hydron has stainless steel cabinet and Geocomfort has painted cabinet. Thats the only difference.
Can't say I believe Water Furnace is the "best", but they are a reliable unit that has been around very long. Florida Heat Pump also makes a good unit. My unsolicited advice: Be more concerned about your contractor/installer than the brand of equipment. Your about to enter into a 20 year relationship him/her and you want someone who has experience and will be around when you need it fixed. And that peace of mind comes with a premium.

You are spot on with what I quote here in Ohio. My company installs quite a few geothermal units every year. My quotes for replacement are usually in the $20,000 Range. If we have to add loops or wells it is usually 4000 more per ton. Verticals loops are less costly to Instal than horizontal wells. We install the Carrier Infinity which is comparable with the water furnace you were quoted,I would definitely go with the higher EER and Coefficient of performance that these systems have over your lower end units. I also agree in choosing the right contractor for the job. My company makes alot of money from people who choose a cheaper contractor who screws up their install

 

[300stw]

any good contractors in western idaho

 

[grizzly_]

any good contractors in western idaho

I spoke to one in meridian that seemed legit; do a dealer search on WaterFurnace website and they'll come up. I'm still trying to find someone in Northern Utah if anybody has a recommendation

 

[Gellar]

We have a pump and dump geothermal system at work. Meaning it is pumped from a well and is injected back into the aquifer through another well. We have 9 heat pumps for a 10,500 sq. Foot building. The system and building are 7 years old. We have not had a year where we have not had to do work on at least 1 heat pump. I lost complete heat on January 12. It was -20. We are still on a temporary heat source. The dump well mineralized shut and the well company has been working at getting cleared.

If anyone has experience with geothermal wells and systems. I’d love to ask you a few questions.

From my experience I cannot recommend a geothermal system especially as your primary or only source.

 

[Forkyfinder]

One of the primary drivers of the efficiency of the system is the depth of the ground well for the heat source. So if you have a basement - that's a plus.

At a deeper depth, soil temperature is more consistent and heat can be extracted or wasted into it easier.