Generosity to non-residents

[Nunyacreek]

I’ve been talking to a friend who is constantly complaining that Montana give more tags to non-residents than any other state etc. I am dubious. I’ve also heard Randy talk about the generosity of Wyoming, though that may be changing. Does anyone know of a place where this information is aggregated in some manner? I know it’s not apples to apples because, for instance, in Wyoming all NR deer tags are draw, whereas in Montana NR general deer is a draw. Conversely, I think in Idaho there are OTC tags but limited in number and a portion of these NR tags are used in conjunction with LE opportunity.
I’m thinking I’d like to begin with a basic metric of overall deer and overall elk tags available to residents and those compared to Non-residents. I’m happy to put this in a table if anyone can point me in the right direction.

 

[RobertD]

I’ve been talking to a friend who is constantly complaining that Montana give more tags to non-residents than any other state etc. I am dubious. I’ve also heard Randy talk about the generosity of Wyoming, though that may be changing. Does anyone know of a place where this information is aggregated in some manner? I know it’s not apples to apples because, for instance, in Wyoming all NR deer tags are draw, whereas in Montana NR general deer is a draw. Conversely, I think in Idaho there are OTC tags but limited in number and a portion of these NR tags are used in conjunction with LE opportunity.
I’m thinking I’d like to begin with a basic metric of overall deer and overall elk tags available to residents and those compared to Non-residents. I’m happy to put this in a table if anyone can point me in the right direction.

You should look at each state game agency's website and get your numbers from there and just fix up a spreadsheet on Excel if you want to do broad numerical categories. I would add thought that the information you're looking for is more complex than just what numbers tell you.

If you define generous to NRs as something similar to ROI, each state has strengths and weaknesses outside of tag allocations.

 

[Dougfirtree]

I’ve been talking to a friend who is constantly complaining that Montana give more tags to non-residents than any other state etc. I am dubious. I’ve also heard Randy talk about the generosity of Wyoming, though that may be changing. Does anyone know of a place where this information is aggregated in some manner? I know it’s not apples to apples because, for instance, in Wyoming all NR deer tags are draw, whereas in Montana NR general deer is a draw. Conversely, I think in Idaho there are OTC tags but limited in number and a portion of these NR tags are used in conjunction with LE opportunity.
I’m thinking I’d like to begin with a basic metric of overall deer and overall elk tags available to residents and those compared to Non-residents. I’m happy to put this in a table if anyone can point me in the right direction.

I can't imagine any western state gives out more NR tags than Colorado.

 

[rmyoung1]

No state holds a candle to Colorado. If Colorado suddenly ceased giving tags to nonresidents, I think the entire US-elk-hunting-thing would implode.

@wllm1313 has cited specific numbers here before, but I believe over half of the nation’s elk hunters each year are hunting in CO.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

No state holds a candle to Colorado. If Colorado suddenly ceased giving tags to nonresidents, I think the entire US-elk-hunting-thing would implode.

@wllm1313 has cited specific numbers here before, but I believe over half of the nation’s elk hunters each year are hunting in CO.

Hold my beer....

@Nunyacreek your friend clearly has no idea how anything works. Most MT residents I know think that NR buy tags OTC like residents.

They can't, it's all draw.

CO gives out more NR elk tags than all us states combined. Colorado has units where 70% of the hunters in the field are non-residents. This later fact was given by CPW at the last meeting when they did a case study of the steamboat area units.

As you can see these numbers are about 5 years old, and what has changed is most states with the exception of CO have gotten stingy with there their tags.


I actually did the math of what would happen if CO went the route of other western states

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Colorado is a swell guy.
I may need to try deer there one day.

 

[nrpate05]

I think CO gives something like 35-40% of Mule deer tags to nonresidents as well. That is nutty!

 

[rmyoung1]

Hold my beer....

@Nunyacreek your friend clearly has no idea how anything works. Most MT residents I know think that NR buy tags OTC like residents.

They can't, it's all draw.

CO gives out more NR elk tags than all us states combined.

Those numbers are pretty staggering. So if CO became an average allocator of nonresident elk opportunity, total US NR elk tags would be reduced by nearly 1/3.

 

[amo16]

I've seen data that puts MT's total NR tags around 55,000 when things like B tags, come home to hunt tags and some other tags are included. I'd have to find it again but the numbers were pretty staggering if true.

 

[brockel]

 

[WIbiggame]

View attachment 217964

Plus the 1500 that I believe @Gerald Martin said he read about the outfitters getting for their poor clients who didn't draw last year.

Edit: or did they figure those in?

 

[brockel]

Plus the 1500 that I believe @Gerald Martin said he read about the outfitters getting for their poor clients who didn't draw last year.

Edit: or did they figure those in?

No those would be on top of the 17k

 

[Derek44]

Plus the 1500 that I believe @Gerald Martin said he read about the outfitters getting for their poor clients who didn't draw last year.

Edit: or did they figure those in?

I saw that article somewhere else, not remembering where, but yes, I do believe those extra outfitter tags were calculated into those numbers.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I've seen data that puts MT's total NR tags around 55,000 when things like B tags, come home to hunt tags and some other tags are included. I'd have to find it again but the numbers were pretty staggering if true.

The problem with adding in Deer is that you are double counting people, I mean use the numbers @brockel provided are accurate but misleading if you're trying to discuss the number of NR hunters. Lots of folks are likely grabbing those ultra cheep doe tags and walking into the field with 5 tags in their pocket.

If you're saying "it's a lot" you have to define what that means. Compared to resident numbers, ok so in regards to the 59,395 using the same methodology how are resident tags are offered, what is the ratio. How does that ratio compare to other states.

One might say MT has a lot of elk... but in what context... compared to KY, sure. Like as in has lots of animals, Pennsylvania has more whitetail then there are total elk in the United States.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Those numbers are pretty staggering. So if CO became an average allocator of nonresident elk opportunity, total US NR elk tags would be reduced by nearly 1/3.

Yep.

If you like elk hunting you absolutely need to give a shit what Colorado does with allocation.

"Oh but I hunt WY".... yeah the 90/10 discussions will drive point creep some, but what do you think cutting 30% of the NR opportunity in the US will do.

 

[PrairieHunter]

Colorado by a landslide. In fact if you want to get technical Colorado likely issues the least % of tags to people actually born in the state since most of the "residents" are transplants.

I'd be shocked if even 1/2 of the tags in Colorado go to people from there.

 

[GrantK]

Yep.

If you like elk hunting you absolutely need to give a shit what Colorado does with allocation.

"Oh but I hunt WY".... yeah the 90/10 discussions will drive point creep some, but what do you think cutting 30% of the NR opportunity in the US will do.

this should be required reading for all the people in CO who are in the focus groups coming up for discussions of ways to deal with crowding/NR numbers, it's easy to say "kick out the nonresident!" but if you have any desire to hunt elk outside your own state you should be cautious with that strategy, dumping an extra 30k apps into WY, for example, would push that general tag into once a decade territory, let alone what that would do to point creep and odds for tougher tags, CO could use a reduction in pressure for sure but the unintended consequences will affect the entire west.

 

[TOGIE]

it's sort of a catch 22 though.

i go back and forth.

what's clear is that NR opportunity is declining everywhere while at the same time in a lot of colorado units quality is tanking due to crowding.

so, if my NR opportunity as a colorado resident is tanking, nearly across the board, then i want my resident quality AND opportunity to get better.

i'd personally even further sacrifice further NR opportunity in order to gain better R opportunity and even moreso, quality.

personally, i'd put the onus on other states to consider their actions against NR more than colorado. because it's the other states actions that are gonna cause people like me and others in colorado to further push our managers to give us more and better.

as my NR opportunities get fewer and farther between, i want better opportunity and quality at home.

wyoming general elk is gonna turn into a once in a decade regardless of what colorado does. meanwhile, we'll still be dishing out oodles of tags and have units with 70% NR. at that point i couldn't care less what the ramifications are if we cut NR opportunity. i don't what shit opportunity as an NR AND shit quality and hampered opportunity as an R.

 

[amo16]

The problem with adding in Deer is that you are double counting people, I mean use the numbers @brockel provided are accurate but misleading if you're trying to discuss the number of NR hunters. Lots of folks are likely grabbing those ultra cheep doe tags and walking into the field with 5 tags in their pocket.

If you're saying "it's a lot" you have to define what that means. Compared to resident numbers, ok so in regards to the 59,395 using the same methodology how are resident tags are offered, what is the ratio. How does that ratio compare to other states.

One might say MT has a lot of elk... but in what context... compared to KY, sure. Like as in has lots of animals, Pennsylvania has more whitetail then there are total elk in the United States.

In general I think people are more concerned with the number of tags issued to NR than the number of NR hunters.

 

[8andcounting]

View attachment 217964

It’s B tags that really inflate these numbers . In my opinion Montana should do away with all deer b tags … period