FWP Proposed Changes - 2021 Season Setting

[brocksw]

Easy fix, realize that a huge % are people that are dreaming up problems, going off rumors, job site talk, bar room chatter or could be easily confused by how to properly use stairs. If that’s a justification that will be used then those making the decisions should go man the phones for a few days and understand a lot of people are beyond help no matter how simple life is

I don't think I or any one else disputes the fact that stupid and lazy people will be stupid and lazy.

The problem is those people are occupying the phone lines, making mistakes on their tags/drawings, adding to the confusion, and the system itself is allowing too much room for backroom deals to change things in the favor of certain demographics. I mean look how many different flavors of BS Montana had this year regarding landowner tags, landowner sponsored tags, giving away bonus points for landowners, giving away extra preference points if you shoot a cow. Lots of people discussing those very issues were confused about what was what and what bill did what. The system, while not extremely complex overall, is complex in comparison.

It is in our best interest on multiple fronts to make it simpler. More efficient use of FWP man hours and resources, less stupid "I didn't know what my tag was good for" violations in the field, less options to take advantage of for those that want to exploit said system.

 

[brocksw]

We are doomed. Nobody can agree on anything and everybody has their shoot from the hip ideas me included. GG and crew about to steam roll he knows what he wants.

Not long ago we had an entire thread about trying to find solutions, meeting in the middle with the "opposition" so we could get things done together. Hunters, landowners, outfitters. Here we have an opportunity to make an improvement (albeit a small one) and acknowledge a change needs to be made and cooperatively work towards a solution and everyone just digs their heels in ...we're right back where we started.

 

[Dakota79]

I don't think I or any one else disputes the fact that stupid and lazy people will be stupid and lazy.

The problem is those people are occupying the phone lines, making mistakes on their tags/drawings, adding to the confusion, and the system itself is allowing too much room for backroom deals to change things in the favor of certain demographics. I mean look how many different flavors of BS Montana had this year regarding landowner tags, landowner sponsored tags, giving away bonus points for landowners, giving away extra preference points if you shoot a cow. Lots of people discussing those very issues were confused about what was what and what bill did what. The system, while not extremely complex overall, is complex in comparison.

It is in our best interest on multiple fronts to make it simpler. More efficient use of FWP man hours and resources, less stupid "I didn't know what my tag was good for" violations in the field, less options to take advantage of for those that want to exploit said system.

I would tend to agree.

 

[EYJONAS!]

Not long ago we had an entire thread about trying to find solutions, meeting in the middle with the "opposition" so we could get things done together. Hunters, landowners, outfitters. Here we have an opportunity to make an improvement (albeit a small one) and acknowledge a change needs to be made and cooperatively work towards a solution and everyone just digs their heels in ...we're right back where we started.

Repost of @Schaaf pissing in the wind gif.

They'll allow the public to speak because they have to but I feel we could line up and storm the capital in Helena and that still wouldn't change a damn thing IMO.

Hell a person can't get anywhere with a biologist now, they look at you but don't listen to a word. Because, their educated and the hunter isn't in their eyes or maybe they're tired of hearing it I don't know.

Now with General Greg in command and Big Hank's let's make it simple "philosophy" it looks pretty damn gloomy for the future.

Can't wait to see what outfitters are charging for trophy bulls and bucks in about 3 years on their leases that are 3 times the size of what they are today. I bet they'll be up there with a dall sheep hunt for some though....

There's great a points raised by @MTelkHuntress on this thread, what happens in emergency shutdown situations?

@JLS does a great job breaking it down as well.

Can't wait to see what's not left for my kids in 2 years when they're 12.

 

[tjones]

Not long ago we had an entire thread about trying to find solutions, meeting in the middle with the "opposition" so we could get things done together. Hunters, landowners, outfitters. Here we have an opportunity to make an improvement (albeit a small one) and acknowledge a change needs to be made and cooperatively work towards a solution and everyone just digs their heels in ...we're right back where we started.

I wish I was as optimistic as you. Read the OP’s 3rd attachment about the proposals being put together without advocacy. Direct from Hank himself. If they don’t want public input on the proposals they sure aren’t going to listen after running them through legal then vetting them through the Wildlife Division.


I have been through more season setting processes and tentatives then I can remember, never has it been done like this.

I believe the agency learned from shoulder seasons how to handle public input. And this will have the same outcome. Public will have no say.

I hope I’m wrong.

 

[BuzzH]

I don't think I or any one else disputes the fact that stupid and lazy people will be stupid and lazy.

The problem is those people are occupying the phone lines, making mistakes on their tags/drawings, adding to the confusion, and the system itself is allowing too much room for backroom deals to change things in the favor of certain demographics. I mean look how many different flavors of BS Montana had this year regarding landowner tags, landowner sponsored tags, giving away bonus points for landowners, giving away extra preference points if you shoot a cow. Lots of people discussing those very issues were confused about what was what and what bill did what. The system, while not extremely complex overall, is complex in comparison.

It is in our best interest on multiple fronts to make it simpler. More efficient use of FWP man hours and resources, less stupid "I didn't know what my tag was good for" violations in the field, less options to take advantage of for those that want to exploit said system.

I get what you're trying to do, simplify things.

It does seem funny that I've been hunting Montana for over 40 years, never found the application process or point systems that complicated.

Bonus points squared for everything.

Only preference points are for NR deer, elk, and combo licenses.

You are right about the legislature TRYING to complicate the process, but what's being proposed with lumping areas, etc. while making things more simple for, well the simple minded that can't read, it destroys management.

Montana should be breaking up some of the huge areas they have to address management concerns on a much smaller scale.

This is going to fail the wildlife in Montana as well as the average DIY hunters, no 2 ways about it.

 

[brocksw]

I get what you're trying to do, simplify things.

It does seem funny that I've been hunting Montana for over 40 years, never found the application process or point systems that complicated.

Bonus points squared for everything.

Only preference points are for NR deer, elk, and combo licenses.

You are right about the legislature TRYING to complicate the process, but what's being proposed with lumping areas, etc. while making things more simple for, well the simple minded that can't read, it destroys management.

Montana should be breaking up some of the huge areas they have to address management concerns on a much smaller scale.

This is going to fail the wildlife in Montana as well as the average DIY hunters, no 2 ways about it.

If done in that manner yes, I agree 100%.

But I think we also have to stop just opposing everything just because the "otherside" brought it to the table. To me, it would be far more productive for HTers and like minded folks in the hunting community to stand up and say, "Hey FWP we agree there are some inefficiencies and things that need changing and updating. Heres some things we think we can both agree on. Here's a list of things where we think you're wrong and here's the evidence or explanation as to why. Let's sit down and talk about this so can find a solution going forward."


Instead we get "Those **beepity **beep **beeps are gonna **beep everything up, they're all enemies, nothing they do is right, let's fight them tooth and nail on every single thing they bring forward! Get your pitch forks!" Hank and GG proceed to ram whatever they wanted down our throat because no matter what they do we just fight them.

 

[brocksw]

I get what you're trying to do, simplify things.

It does seem funny that I've been hunting Montana for over 40 years, never found the application process or point systems that complicated.

Bonus points squared for everything.

Only preference points are for NR deer, elk, and combo licenses.

You are right about the legislature TRYING to complicate the process, but what's being proposed with lumping areas, etc. while making things more simple for, well the simple minded that can't read, it destroys management.

Montana should be breaking up some of the huge areas they have to address management concerns on a much smaller scale.

This is going to fail the wildlife in Montana as well as the average DIY hunters, no 2 ways about it.

And yes it's funny...I have to explain the MT draw system to a couple of my buddies and my dad every year. They're not stupid, just don't want to devote any brain Power or memory space to figuring itnout.

 

[tjones]

If done in that manner yes, I agree 100%.

But I think we also have to stop just opposing everything just because the "otherside" brought it to the table. To me, it would be far more productive for HTers and like minded folks in the hunting community to stand up and say, "Hey FWP we agree there are some inefficiencies and things that need changing and updating. Heres some things we think we can both agree on. Here's a list of things where we think you're wrong and here's the evidence or explanation as to why. Let's sit down and talk about this so can find a solution going forward."


Instead we get "Those **beepity **beep **beeps are gonna **beep everything up, they're all enemies, nothing they do is right, let's fight them tooth and nail on every single thing they bring forward! Get your pitch forks!" Hank and GG proceed to ram whatever they wanted down our throat because no matter what they do we just fight them.

This was tried for shoulder seasons. For lots or years.

We now have more shoulder seasons then ever and headed to public land.

 

[TheJason]

I’ll happily eat crow if I’m wrong. I’ve been at this shit too many years to see this ending up much differently than I’ve predicted.

 

[brocksw]

I’ll happily eat crow if I’m wrong. I’ve been at this shit too many years to see this sending up much differently than I’ve predicted.

Yeah perhaps I'm naive. Just seems like this current extrme pendulum of back and forth heel digging and poop throwing hasn't been very productive either.

 

[BuzzH]

If done in that manner yes, I agree 100%.

But I think we also have to stop just opposing everything just because the "otherside" brought it to the table. To me, it would be far more productive for HTers and like minded folks in the hunting community to stand up and say, "Hey FWP we agree there are some inefficiencies and things that need changing and updating. Heres some things we think we can both agree on. Here's a list of things where we think you're wrong and here's the evidence or explanation as to why. Let's sit down and talk about this so can find a solution going forward."


Instead we get "Those **beepity **beep **beeps are gonna **beep everything up, they're all enemies, nothing they do is right, let's fight them tooth and nail on every single thing they bring forward! Get your pitch forks!" Hank and GG proceed to ram whatever they wanted down our throat because no matter what they do we just fight them.

Simple solution, adopt Wyoming's Management System, tag system, as well as hunter access program.

No need for Montana to reinvent the wheel.

Montana isn't doing anything but trying to create a 4 sided wheel.

I got news for you, I don't care how "simple" the tag/application system is...people can't read and comprehension is ZIP for a lot of folks.

Randy and others even put stuff up on youtube, etc...they still can't figure it out. I've come to the conclusion, there's just people out there that could find a way to bend a submarine in open water.

 

[TheJason]

Yeah perhaps I'm naive. Just seems like this current extrme pendulum of back and forth heel digging and poop throwing hasn't been very productive either.

There will be no pendulum or heel digging. Montana hunters are getting what they voted for, pure and simple.

 

[BuzzH]

I’ll happily eat crow if I’m wrong. I’ve been at this shit too many years to see this sending up much differently than I’ve predicted.

You wont have to worry about eating crow...

 

[EYJONAS!]

Hardest part is gonna be determining which district I'm gonna go to first. I've got a pretty good idea though.

 

[Sytes]

Hardest part is gonna be determining which district I'm gonna go to first. I've got a pretty good idea though.

I was thinking hunger games District 13, ftw while the feudal system dons their Jersey crowns.

 

[R.K.]

So how do we make a meaningful change to the management? How do we oppose things that would be detrimental to the resource, and to hunting in general?

How in the hell do we make this state better and keep those with the means from implementing their will to grab everything they can from those of us without the means to oppose them?

 

[Big Fin]

So how do we make a meaningful change to the management? How do we oppose things that would be detrimental to the resource, and to hunting in general?

How in the hell do we make this state better and keep those with the means from implementing their will to grab everything they can from those of us without the means to oppose them?

That's the big question, a question that has been occupying a lot of my time and thoughts.

We are planning how our platforms might be used to push for better management and oppose bad proposals. I've been working all my connections, but information is tough to come by. A lot of the bigger changes in how decisions are made and who is applying the pressure seem to be harder to sort out.

The legislative sessions shows that the audience can be activated. I just need to figure out how our platforms can have the greatest impact.

I do think we wait to see what the final pitch is, though I think it is helpful to have threads that keep adding as much information as possible to those who are interested in being part of the process. The reason I started the other thread was to make sure people knew something big was coming.

When we find out what the changes are, once we hear the rationale, once we sort out what is good/bad and what bigger consequences will result, hunters must mobilize to make a difference. It will take action; phone calls, emails, meetings, face-to-face with anyone who is closely connected to the tight circles who have taken the reins, and informing those fellow hunters/anglers who are not engaged in these issues as part of their daily dialogue.

Appreciate all who are concerned and putting their shoulder to the wheel.

 

[antlerradar]

6. Hank is going full send on opportunity. Any hope of better management is diminishing.
7. MT should be managing by allocating hunters into smaller geographic areas, similar to what WY and ID do.

I know that many will want to blame the Governor and he deserves some of the blame as the buck stops at his desk. Most of the blame should land with FWP. Opportunity at all cost and the Law of Diminishing returns has been the guiding philosophy of FWP decision makers since I was a teenager. Any employ with a dissenting view is ether never advanced, gets disillusioned and quits or is purged from the department. The governor and Hank are just giving the order to engaging warp engines and many of the crew are all on board. The course is headed right at the sun and us passengers flying in coach are the ones that are going to get fried.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I know that many will want to blame the Governor and he deserves some of the blame as the buck stops at his desk. Most of the blame should land with FWP. Opportunity at all cost and the Law of Diminishing returns has been the guiding philosophy of FWP decision makers since I was a teenager. Any employ with a dissenting view is ether never advanced, gets disillusioned and quits or is purged from the department. The governor and Hank are just giving the order to engaging warp engines and many of the crew are all on board. The course is headed right at the sun and us passengers flying in coach are the ones that are going to get fried.

Let's not forget our friends in the Legislature. Half of what's coming along are former bills proposed by those who have consistently voted against resident hunters, access programs and wildlife conservation in general. We killed bills to eliminate the unlimited districts, we stopped bills to eliminate the ability of FWP to engage in limited entry permits in districts that were over objective, we killed attempts to privatize licenses and we stopped crossbows during archery.

all of that is coming back at the commission level.

When the body that is in charge of your budget and sets the laws sends the messages that they have over the last 16 + years, anyone is going to take notice, especially this administration. Leadership matters, as do appropriators.