elkduds
Well-known member
Got a reply to my Thank You email:
Thanks Duds, appreciate your engagement for our wildlife!
Pat Byorth
FWP Commission to change Gardiner Elk hunting
- Thread starter Big Fin
- Start date
Got a reply to my Thank You email:
Thanks Duds, appreciate your engagement for our wildlife!
Pat Byorth
FREAK
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I reached out to region 3 with a couple questions. Hoping I get a response but wanted to throw one up here and see if anyone had any thoughts:
Is there any supporting data for the commissioners (Tabors) claim that allowing brow tine bull hunting to go through the last two weeks and muzzleloader would not further reduce the bull to cow ratio but rather bring down the bull age class? It doesn't make sense to me that that claim would be true if the only thing changed is that hunters would be allowed to hunt bulls for a longer portion of the year. Seem like it would in fact reduce the already bismol bull to cow ratio of ~3.6:100.
Is there any supporting data for the commissioners (Tabors) claim that allowing brow tine bull hunting to go through the last two weeks and muzzleloader would not further reduce the bull to cow ratio but rather bring down the bull age class? It doesn't make sense to me that that claim would be true if the only thing changed is that hunters would be allowed to hunt bulls for a longer portion of the year. Seem like it would in fact reduce the already bismol bull to cow ratio of ~3.6:100.
rogerthat
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Yeah unfortunately math doesn’t lie. For example I have 7 bulls and 200 cows. Now I kill 2 bulls
thanks noodleberg!
sacountry
Well-known member
Looking at the FWP Commission agenda for Feb 22 and I don't see a mention of an HD 313 discussion. Guessing that Tabor and Cebull are still editing it.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
It was your uncle Mike that gave me this clipping. I hunted with him and your grandfather back in the 90s on late hunts a couple times. Great people to say the least. And your grandpa, dad, and uncle built my home in 1972- I'll never sell that house and heard about it (and another carbon copy of it built in town) on those Gardiner hunts years before I snagged it. I believe it may have been your great grandfather that held onto this newspaper clipping about Gardiner elk. Back in those days 25 or so years back the elk hunting was crazy good. Sad to see the current state.
TimberBuck
Member
Yes, I’ve got the same clipping somewhere, my uncle made a copy for me as well, I’ll have to dig it up. As the story goes, in the big kills referenced in the articles, apparently not everyone even brought a rifle along, or owned one for that matter. Some were just armed with knives and would run up and claim an elk shot by others. Some desperate times in the great depression, although some things never seem to change as elk still make people do crazy things.
Like many from that generation, my great-grandfather rarely kept any heads/antlers either, only a couple over the entire course of his lifetime. Most he left in the field. However, one day down near Gardiner, maybe 70-80 years ago or more, my great-grandfather was hunting with a friend and they encountered a giant bull elk at first light, with main beams longer than any he’d ever seen. My great-grandpa raised his rifle to shoot, but his friend told him not to shoot, as he said it was too early in the day to kill an elk and he wanted to keep hunting. Even though he didn’t hunt for the horns, that bull always stuck with him and he regretted not shooting him for the rest of his life. I’ve always wondered how big that bull must have been for a meat hunter to tell stories of it.
There’s nobody else more fitting for your house than yourself, being as my grandpa originally built it for a taxidermist, it fits you perfectly! Glad you’ve hung onto it over the years, I know my family has always been happy it ended up in your hands. I enjoyed walking through it a few years back, very cool to see it and of course to see all your incredible deer, elk, antelope, bear, moose, goat, etc.
I see the December 2023 Commission meeting has a new Amendment to change the boundaries between HD 313/314. I'm trying to map it out to see if it is the same effect as the proposal that the Region 1 Commissioner tried to get in last year that would have changed the season structure/dates down there.
Interesting how these are always Commission efforts and not Department efforts. The meeting is December 14th.
Comment link here - https://fwp.mt.gov/aboutfwp/commission/december-2023-meeting
Interesting how these are always Commission efforts and not Department efforts. The meeting is December 14th.
Comment link here - https://fwp.mt.gov/aboutfwp/commission/december-2023-meeting
FREAK
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Am I understanding it correctly?
The proposal is to change the SW portion of 313 that is west of the YS river to 314, thus making it general though the end of the year? I thought Tabor was trying to turn it all general last year. I’m in opposition regardless, just more interested to know if there was a different proposal last year than the one Tabor initially tried pushing through.
I believe this is the proposed map:
406dn
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I strongly suspect that the outfitters that operate there are lobbying hard to get this change. With the limited draw for the last two weeks of the season, their outfitting essentially dries up after the third week of the season.
My brother and I hunted 313 this year, and I killed the bull I posted in the thread of elk photos. The bull to cow ratio is still really out of whack. The bull I killed was bringing up the rear with ~75 cows. He was the only bull in the bunch. When glassing into the park, the ratio was very similar.
If the department had the best interest of the herd foremost in mind, all of the hunting in that unit would go to limited draw.
Given that Montana shares that herd with YNP, it is sad that the herd has such an imbalance in the bull to cow ratio.
My brother and I hunted 313 this year, and I killed the bull I posted in the thread of elk photos. The bull to cow ratio is still really out of whack. The bull I killed was bringing up the rear with ~75 cows. He was the only bull in the bunch. When glassing into the park, the ratio was very similar.
If the department had the best interest of the herd foremost in mind, all of the hunting in that unit would go to limited draw.
Given that Montana shares that herd with YNP, it is sad that the herd has such an imbalance in the bull to cow ratio.
I don’t have experience with the area so I probably shouldn’t comment but with a bull:cow ratio so poor how does this even keep coming up. It seems our “management” has little regard to wildlife. The state is a dumpster fire. concerned sportsman urging fwp or commission to not kill them all while they go full steam ahead.
I was in 313 this week. Out of at least 1200 elk I glassed one small 6 point bull. In archery even on big private ranches like Dome Mountain Ranch, there was 2 bulls rutting probably 300 cows. It’s sad. I hate to say it but it should all go to draw and it could become a great tag again
Not too mention I was there last year in February on the west side of 313 and driving past Beattie gulch, it was alarming the amount of big bull elk in the back of tribal hunters trucks. This went on into march. Those bulls never got a break
The thing that pisses me off, is that these amendments were added after many people already commented. Once you comment, you aren't allowed to comment again unless you get on a different computer. I know there's other ways to comment like e-mailing the commission directly, but adding these after the fact isn't right IMO. A lot of people that already commented won't even know about them.
Thank fwp for inviting multiple tribes to come over to Buffalo hunt. It was predictable that other animals would also get hammered
Nameless Range
Well-known member
I know the public comment Is still open, but you are absolutely right.
I recently took a training for members of public boards. Really great training. Fascinating to learn about Montana’s open meeting laws, the public’s right to know, our great constitution - laws that both this commission, and this executive branch, have been caught violating.
Take a far more innocuous example of a motion on a planning board. The motion would be made and seconded and the chair would ask the public for comment prior to the board voting. If after any public comment, the board discussed an amendment, the chair would be right, and would be protecting the board, to call for a brand new round of public comment.
Technically, maybe they aren’t breaking any laws because public comment is still open, but it feels gross and disingenuous, particularly because one is commenting on what functionally are hundreds of motions at once.
Why do ideas No one asked for come out of the commission and sometimes the department, but ideas everyone or large numbers of people ask for rarely do?
I’ve talked with other sportsmen and heard that a group of landowners and outfitters, petitioned the commission for this change. Their aim is to expand outfitting opportunities and allow antlerless elk hunting in that area. This is brought up at the last minute right before the decision is made, and unless people speak up against it (by emailing the commissioners or by speaking at the final season setting meeting), it will likely pass. This proposal, particularly since it deviates from the usual process for season setting, seems to be an attempt by a small faction to bypass the public procedure without having to create an argument against other stakeholders’ views. As proposed, this amendment would not add much additional antlerless opportunity (as it would be the same regulations in current HD 314’s southern portion), but it would add an additional 2 weeks of bull/MD Buck hunting in the western portion of current HD 313, and then a muzzleloader season.
To provide some context, until around 2005, District 314 extended to the Park boundary. However, that southern portion of then 314 was managed in conjunction with HD 313. Around the time of the adoption of the 2005 Elk Plan, HD 313 was expanded to encompass the entire Northern Yellowstone Herd, and, given the available data, there appears to be no biological rationale for altering these boundaries. The mentioned section of 313 already experiences considerable hunting pressure on public lands, even under its slightly stricter regulations.
Here is how you can comment on the new amendment (email [email protected]. ):
More Amendments Proposed For December Fish And Wildlife Commission Meeting | Montana FWP
Two more amendments to agenda items for the December Fish and Wildlife Commission meeting are available for public review online.
fwp.mt.gov
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Thank you for bringing this to our attention- email sent.
For those that have already commented, you can send updated comments to: [email protected]
Edit: All comments via Email are due today, the 21st!
For those that have already commented, you can send updated comments to: [email protected]
Edit: All comments via Email are due today, the 21st!
People have until Nov. 30 to comment on these two amendments, but the rest are due today.
