FWP Bonus Point Sketchiness

[MTTW]

I wonder what would actually happen if MT scrapped the bonus point thing. I wonder if the high point person's odds would actually go up after all of the crying and hand wringing over the terrible loss, and a bunch of people who feel invested said to hell with it.

The max point resident guys have invested approximately the price of 12 gallons of gas for their 20 names in the hat spread out over 20 years, the other 550+ were free. I invested more in a cow elk after general and muzzy season were over. I invested more in the roll of wrapping paper to put her in the freezer. I invested 1/2 that in a box of beer to drink while cutting it up. As investments go BPs are a screaming good deal... unless you were born late. If you were born late, they are drastically worse than auction tags. They are a theft from our children and their children etc. Justified by (we were at the front of the line.)

 

[Big Fin]

Having sat on the MT committee that came up with our point system, it was known from the start that it would not accomplish what some were hoping for. It's just simple math for most of the issues. And as much as bonus point systems are inherently flawed, preference point systems are even more flawed when applied to the stated purposes most claim for wanting a point system.

When you give away 200 ram tags and have 25,000 applicants, a point system, whether preference or bonus point system, is not going to do anything to improve anyone's odds in a meaningful way. Especially when tens of thousands were in on the ground floor and you are competing with them more than any other group.

We had a statistician talk to the committee about the benefit of squaring points. He showed us what a folly that is for species having very few tags and thousands of applicants. It was shown that squaring points does nothing, other than screwing over someone who wasn't born early enough to get in on the ground floor, so the committee rejected the idea. Yet, what did the legislature do after about ten years? - passed a law to square bonus points.

By the mere fact that these systems stay around for decades, the table gets slanted by those who design the system. I was the junior member of the committee by at least ten years, and twenty years the junior of most members. It was pretty easy to see how the table was going to be slanted; the old and gray carried the votes.

Making the Big 3 a Once-In-A-Lifetime tag was considered, but soundly defeated. Not because of the merits, but too many people hoped they might get a third or fourth sheep or moose tag in their life. Waiting periods for trophy bull elk was suggested, but again, defeated by old folks worried they might not get enough of those in their lifetime.

We also considered keeping some of the tags as random and not part of the point draw. Again, the old birds killed that without even allowing much a debate.

At the time of this committee meeting and giving recommendations to the legislature, most of the analysis was based on the old system where money had to be sent in as an upfront cost. As poorly as a point system performs under that "pay up front" situation, a point system is even more of a joke when you get rid of the "pay up front" and double, triple, or quadruple the number of applicants for the few tags awarded.

None of this comes as a surprise, especially with the changes the legislature has made. Anyone who thinks a point system puts more sheep or goats or moose of elk on the landscape is kidding themselves. I would argue that it does the opposite, possibly festering a sense of entitlement for the purchase of points. As if purchasing points somehow magically produces more animals and more tags into the system.

I'm sitting on max points for sheep in MT. If MT said they wanted to get rid of the point system for sheep, I'd be for it. I'd like to see half the tags carved away from the bonus point system and be a random draw. I'd be fine with making the Big 3 a OIL option, even if that happened retroactively. I'll never apply for moose or goat again, even when I'm out of the seven year penalty box. I know others feel differently. I'd be fine with a seven year waiting period for limited entry elk or deer that have less than 10% draw odds. And, I'd really like to require the cost to be paid in advance.

Reading these discussions about point systems does confirm that the systems are not going away anytime soon. Too much money for the agencies and too many hunters now feel invested and expect something for their purchase of points, however small that financial investment might be.

Carry on .....

 

[DFS]

I don’t mind Montana’s system for the big 3. Make them OIL and up front the tag costs would be the changes I would make. At some point the old guys need to know when they need to bow out. When you can apply for little to nothing you are going to get people that draw that really don’t care to have the tag.

 

[tjones]

I would like to see an increase in permit fees and back to fronting the money for MSG and LE bull elk.

I’m an old guy but not ready to bow out. Thanks tho.

I know of a guy the drew a ram permit in the unit I apply for. He killed a 160ish ram on the first day because he “wanted to get it over with.”


I know of a unit with a single goat permit. A couple years ago the guy that drew did not hunt one day.

 

[DFS]

I would like to see an increase in permit fees and back to fronting the money for MSG and LE bull elk.

I’m an old guy but not ready to bow out. Thanks tho.

I know of a guy the drew a ram permit in the unit I apply for. He killed a 160ish ram on the first day because he “wanted to get it over with.”


I know of a unit with a single goat permit. A couple years ago the guy that drew did not hunt one day.

Doesn’t sound like you are old. My point was I think Montana’s system is fine except for a few tweaks. OIL up front tag costs.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Having sat on the MT committee that came up with our point system, it was known from the start that it would not accomplish what some were hoping for. It's just simple math for most of the issues. And as much as bonus point systems are inherently flawed, preference point systems are even more flawed when applied to the stated purposes most claim for wanting a point system.

When you give away 200 ram tags and have 25,000 applicants, a point system, whether preference or bonus point system, is not going to do anything to improve anyone's odds in a meaningful way. Especially when tens of thousands were in on the ground floor and you are competing with them more than any other group.

We had a statistician talk to the committee about the benefit of squaring points. He showed us what a folly that is for species having very few tags and thousands of applicants. It was shown that squaring points does nothing, other than screwing over someone who wasn't born early enough to get in on the ground floor, so the committee rejected the idea. Yet, what did the legislature do after about ten years? - passed a law to square bonus points.

By the mere fact that these systems stay around for decades, the table gets slanted by those who design the system. I was the junior member of the committee by at least ten years, and twenty years the junior of most members. It was pretty easy to see how the table was going to be slanted; the old and gray carried the votes.

Making the Big 3 a Once-In-A-Lifetime tag was considered, but soundly defeated. Not because of the merits, but too many people hoped they might get a third or fourth sheep or moose tag in their life. Waiting periods for trophy bull elk was suggested, but again, defeated by old folks worried they might not get enough of those in their lifetime.

We also considered keeping some of the tags as random and not part of the point draw. Again, the old birds killed that without even allowing much a debate.

At the time of this committee meeting and giving recommendations to the legislature, most of the analysis was based on the old system where money had to be sent in as an upfront cost. As poorly as a point system performs under that "pay up front" situation, a point system is even more of a joke when you get rid of the "pay up front" and double, triple, or quadruple the number of applicants for the few tags awarded.

None of this comes as a surprise, especially with the changes the legislature has made. Anyone who thinks a point system puts more sheep or goats or moose of elk on the landscape is kidding themselves. I would argue that it does the opposite, possibly festering a sense of entitlement for the purchase of points. As if purchasing points somehow magically produces more animals and more tags into the system.

I'm sitting on max points for sheep in MT. If MT said they wanted to get rid of the point system for sheep, I'd be for it. I'd like to see half the tags carved away from the bonus point system and be a random draw. I'd be fine with making the Big 3 a OIL option, even if that happened retroactively. I'll never apply for moose or goat again, even when I'm out of the seven year penalty box. I know others feel differently. I'd be fine with a seven year waiting period for limited entry elk or deer that have less than 10% draw odds. And, I'd really like to require the cost to be paid in advance.

Reading these discussions about point systems does confirm that the systems are not going away anytime soon. Too much money for the agencies and too many hunters now feel invested and expect something for their purchase of points, however small that financial investment might be.

Carry on .....

This is discouraging to me because I think I get a false sense of the general public hunter sentiment spending time on here. Based on your synopsis it saddens me how greedy and entitled humans/hunters can be. Thanks for sharing a brief history on how we got to this point.

 

[The Hedgehog]

How am I gonna draw my 3rd moose permit if you guys get your ways?

 

[Derek44]

I think once you’ve drawn one each of MSG, your bonus points should go into a power play mode where you automatically rack up 10 additional points for each species all at one time, you know as an incentive to hurry up and draw.. this power play mode could cost like, $10.

View attachment 320405

Does that mean we can start putting in at the Town Dump. Or Pump. Oops

 

[Eric Albus]

Having sat on the MT committee that came up with our point system, it was known from the start that it would not accomplish what some were hoping for. It's just simple math for most of the issues. And as much as bonus point systems are inherently flawed, preference point systems are even more flawed when applied to the stated purposes most claim for wanting a point system.

When you give away 200 ram tags and have 25,000 applicants, a point system, whether preference or bonus point system, is not going to do anything to improve anyone's odds in a meaningful way. Especially when tens of thousands were in on the ground floor and you are competing with them more than any other group.

We had a statistician talk to the committee about the benefit of squaring points. He showed us what a folly that is for species having very few tags and thousands of applicants. It was shown that squaring points does nothing, other than screwing over someone who wasn't born early enough to get in on the ground floor, so the committee rejected the idea. Yet, what did the legislature do after about ten years? - passed a law to square bonus points.

By the mere fact that these systems stay around for decades, the table gets slanted by those who design the system. I was the junior member of the committee by at least ten years, and twenty years the junior of most members. It was pretty easy to see how the table was going to be slanted; the old and gray carried the votes.

Making the Big 3 a Once-In-A-Lifetime tag was considered, but soundly defeated. Not because of the merits, but too many people hoped they might get a third or fourth sheep or moose tag in their life. Waiting periods for trophy bull elk was suggested, but again, defeated by old folks worried they might not get enough of those in their lifetime.

We also considered keeping some of the tags as random and not part of the point draw. Again, the old birds killed that without even allowing much a debate.

At the time of this committee meeting and giving recommendations to the legislature, most of the analysis was based on the old system where money had to be sent in as an upfront cost. As poorly as a point system performs under that "pay up front" situation, a point system is even more of a joke when you get rid of the "pay up front" and double, triple, or quadruple the number of applicants for the few tags awarded.

None of this comes as a surprise, especially with the changes the legislature has made. Anyone who thinks a point system puts more sheep or goats or moose of elk on the landscape is kidding themselves. I would argue that it does the opposite, possibly festering a sense of entitlement for the purchase of points. As if purchasing points somehow magically produces more animals and more tags into the system.

I'm sitting on max points for sheep in MT. If MT said they wanted to get rid of the point system for sheep, I'd be for it. I'd like to see half the tags carved away from the bonus point system and be a random draw. I'd be fine with making the Big 3 a OIL option, even if that happened retroactively. I'll never apply for moose or goat again, even when I'm out of the seven year penalty box. I know others feel differently. I'd be fine with a seven year waiting period for limited entry elk or deer that have less than 10% draw odds. And, I'd really like to require the cost to be paid in advance.

Reading these discussions about point systems does confirm that the systems are not going away anytime soon. Too much money for the agencies and too many hunters now feel invested and expect something for their purchase of points, however small that financial investment might be.

Carry on .....

And when I suggested doing away with it stoning what I faced.

At the rate mountain lions are eating the breaks sheep none of us need worry about odds going up of getting a permit.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

And when I suggested doing away with it stoning what I faced.

At the rate mountain lions are eating the breaks sheep none of us need worry about odds going up of getting a permit.

The blowback you got was from suggesting preference points rather than bonus points.

 

[BourbonSnowCone]

The blowback you got was from suggesting preference points rather than bonus points.

Everyone’s entitled to their version of government cheese.

 

[Shed God]

Make it all LE. Some hard draws, some gaureented. U want to hunt every yr or a quality hunt every 5

 

[Upstart]

Finally some insight into the real special hunt draw odds, from Mt FWP Bonus Point FAQ:

"In 2023, FWP issued 100 380-20 elk permits, 10668 hunters applied.

Those 10668 hunters had a total of 57,772 bonus points.

If you square the bonus points, that equals 612,605.

Then add in all of the 2023 application (10,668).

The total number of chances in the 2023 drawing for 380-20 elk permits were 623,273.

If you had been applying for 20 years and had 20 bonus points you would have 401 chances in the 2023 drawing.

Of the 100 permits issued, 95 permits went to residents and 5 went to non-residents.

Of the 95 permits that went to residents, 15 permits went to resident landowners."

Jeez, no wonder I can't draw that sheep permit! How about the FWP posting the real odds in the Regulation booklet??

 

[cgasner1]

Finally some insight into the real special hunt draw odds, from Mt FWP Bonus Point FAQ:

"In 2023, FWP issued 100 380-20 elk permits, 10668 hunters applied.

Those 10668 hunters had a total of 57,772 bonus points.

If you square the bonus points, that equals 612,605.

Then add in all of the 2023 application (10,668).

The total number of chances in the 2023 drawing for 380-20 elk permits were 623,273.

If you had been applying for 20 years and had 20 bonus points you would have 401 chances in the 2023 drawing.

Of the 100 permits issued, 95 permits went to residents and 5 went to non-residents.

Of the 95 permits that went to residents, 15 permits went to resident landowners."

Jeez, no wonder I can't draw that sheep permit! How about the FWP posting the real odds in the Regulation booklet??

It’s all there guys just don’t take time to learn or read about the draw in their home state. Take my neighbor for example after 3 years of not drawing a archery tag he told me he was gonna go to fwp and demand the switch the system to a wait for elk after you draw like the big 3.

 

[LopeHunter]

I am against tag fees paid upfront as this eliminates some hunters merely because they are not sitting on a tidy rainy day fund. No one draws all of the Big 3 in one year, after all. If you are fronting money for your 15 year-old son or daughter or four then even more funds need tucked away.

I would benefit from making the game costlier to play but I do recall being paycheck to paycheck when a wee lad.

 

[cgasner1]

I am against tag fees paid upfront as this eliminates some hunters merely because they are not sitting on a tidy rainy day fund. No one draws all of the Big 3 in one year, after all. If you are fronting money for your 15 year-old son or daughter or four then even more funds need tucked away.

I would benefit from making the game costlier to play but I do recall being paycheck to paycheck when a wee lad.

I don’t want people priced out by any stretch. I also think it should cost enough that a guy doesn’t put everyone in his family in for every tag. The tags for big 3 are so rare it kinda sucks when you find out his wife’s grandma actually didn’t want to hunt mountain goats

 

[Hem]

People don't have enough money, spare me.
It's called priorities.