From a ranch, but HOLY CRAP!

[brocksw]

The odds of finding a 600+ inch bull on public land in a general unit are never 0, but ....oh wait, yes, yes they are 0.

 

[ImBillT]

100% there is red stag in that bull

Although there very well could be some red stag in that bull, having red stag characteristics should not be considered diagnostic of having been bred with a red stag. Red stags and elk are essentially the same animal, that due to having been geographically isolated for so many generations have different prevalence of certain genes, and different genetic mutations. The same mutation that led to crowning in stags could, and likely has, occurred in North American elk. High fence operations that selectively breed, or import animals with large antlers, end up with pretty funky antlers in relatively few generations. While those aren’t antlers that are likely to occur in a more natural setting, I don’t think it necessarily indicates breeding with red stags.

 

[LousyResident]

View attachment 245461

Incredible how he got a full bull elk into that one cooler . . .

 

[lastlight]

View attachment 245461

Hey look the bull actually was seen in the wild! More so than that ranch…

 

[brocksw]

Well and not to mention the whole hole wink wink legality of the whole thing... so it's illegal to go catch some wild elk for your zoo...yet here were are?

And then there is to @Hunting Wife point crossbreeding your "elk" with non-native red deer.

and then the while bit about them escaping...

I thought all that was just...a given.

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

Ear tag must be in the left ear

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

But...
1. High fences preventing natural animal travel on and off of land.
I don't view outfitters and ranch hands cruising standard height fence lines on ATVs and diesel trucks to keep critters in and other hunters away as allowing natural travel. Again, not all outfitters. But it happens, I've experienced it. I'd say the odds this are happening are higher when there are big bulls involved.

Herding them up with ATVs, trucks, Choppas, etc would classify as preventing natural animal travel as well.

2. Breeding genetic freaks to be bought and sold and pretending they are the same as wild naturally occurring animals.

To me this line is blurred. I don't see a ton of difference in hoarding herds of elk for your own playground and guiding business. Last fall in MT, I watched 3 370+ bulls across a fence on private. 1 was a few hundred yards away on the opposite ridge. We'd bugle and he'd just look at us, like "yeah right". He was free to breed and enjoy his harem of 100+ cows without a care in the world. Just not until the outfitter who was leasing that land decided it was his time to go to slaughter. Then it's just a matter of who will pay for the big boy.

What about it is off-putting beyond other than someone can pay for an easier hunt than you? I'd argue those types of populations feed the scorched earth public land populations. How would you feel about it if the same animals were not hunted by outfitters?

May be huge differences to you and I agree there's lots of variability and nuance to each situation. But in general, I view them as similar afflictions within the hunting community at large with far more in common compared to the average DIY public land elk hunter.

But, different stroke for different folks.

I wont argue that there are some of the same ugly sides but I just cant get on board with pen raised, pedigreed, highly supplemented freaks bred to be sold to slaughter inside a high fence being the same ballpark as naturally existing elk that are actually allowed to age.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Although there very well could be some red stag in that bull, having red stag characteristics should not be considered diagnostic of having been bred with a red stag. Red stags and elk are essentially the same animal, that due to having been geographically isolated for so many generations have different prevalence of certain genes, and different genetic mutations. The same mutation that led to crowning in stags could, and likely has, occurred in North American elk. High fence operations that selectively breed, or import animals with large antlers, end up with pretty funky antlers in relatively few generations. While those aren’t antlers that are likely to occur in a more natural setting, I don’t think it necessarily indicates breeding with red stags.

Introduction of red stag genetics in captive elk, particularly those owned by “hunting” operations, is extremely common and well documented. This is done specifically to achieve this type of antler growth. In fact, it was only like 10 or 15 years ago (can’t remember exactly) that a high fence operation in Idaho had a bunch of elk escape and the state issued a kill order because they were all hybrids and they didn’t want them interbreeding with wild elk.

 

[brymoore]

Introduction of red stag genetics in captive elk, particularly those owned by “hunting” operations, is extremely common and well documented. This is done specifically to achieve this type of antler growth. In fact, it was only like 10 or 15 years ago (can’t remember exactly) that a high fence operation in Idaho had a bunch of elk escape and the state issued a kill order because they were all hybrids and they didn’t want them interbreeding with wild elk.

Rex Rammel!

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Introduction of red stag genetics in captive elk, particularly those owned by “hunting” operations, is extremely common and well documented. This is done specifically to achieve this type of antler growth. In fact, it was only like 10 or 15 years ago (can’t remember exactly) that a high fence operation in Idaho had a bunch of elk escape and the state issued a kill order because they were all hybrids and they didn’t want them interbreeding with wild elk.

Utah

HYBRID ELK CONFIRM FEARS ABOUT GENETIC POLLUTION

Tests on elk killed near Elliston last fall showed crossbreeding with European red deer, and state game officials say the genetic pollution confirms their misgivings about exotic animal breeding. ``It looks like our worst fears have come to fruition,'' said Heidi Youmans, author of a Fish...

www.deseret.com

Idaho

Idaho hunting ranch may have had a red deer hybrid

BOISE, Idaho — A domesticated elk from an eastern Idaho hunting ranch where some animals escaped in August has tested positive as a red deer hybrid, which are illegal in

helenair.com

 

[bullbugle307]

Rex Rammel!

He’s in Wyoming now, but I had heard he came from Idaho. Makes sense.

 

[ImBillT]

Introduction of red stag genetics in captive elk, particularly those owned by “hunting” operations, is extremely common and well documented. This is done specifically to achieve this type of antler growth. In fact, it was only like 10 or 15 years ago (can’t remember exactly) that a high fence operation in Idaho had a bunch of elk escape and the state issued a kill order because they were all hybrids and they didn’t want them interbreeding with wild elk.

You’ve replied to a statement I didn’t make. The very first sentence in my post that you quoted acknowledges that the bull in question could have come from breeding with red stags. The point of my post is that having red stag antler characteristics is not 100% diagnostic of the bull having been the result of breeding with red stags. I stand by that. I was already aware that it is something that is done.

Unusual antler characteristics that are extremely uncommon/absent in the wild occur on high fence operations without requiring breeding with other subspecies. The genetic selection pressure inside a high fence operation, especially one with selective breeding, is very different from that which occurs in the wild.

 

[brocksw]

What about it is off-putting beyond other than someone can pay for an easier hunt than you? I'd argue those types of populations feed the scorched earth public land populations. How would you feel about it if the same animals were not hunted by outfitters?

I could buy that hunt too. I choose not to.
But I'm not sure I could answer this question fully without it getting quite lengthy and I'd like to spare everyone their thumb muscles. PM me if you're that interested in my opinion.

I wont argue that there are some of the same ugly sides but I just cant get on board with pen raised, pedigreed, highly supplemented freaks bred to be sold to slaughter inside a high fence being the same ballpark as naturally existing elk that are actually allowed to age.

I agree. I just think certain outfits can control the take in a way that artificially effects their little local population of wild elk and in turn they produce huge bulls that have naturally aged, but they live in a bubble. The sole purpose they were preserved is to sell. Sometimes to hunting personalities to make money off of Instagram likes and to use for promotional items.

They're essentially like cattle. Just preserved and then selectively killed by hunters who pay money to use their fancy hunting gear to kill one instead of a bolt gun between the eyes in front of a barn(exaggerated).


Again I know some, maybe even a majority, of outfitters aren't like that. It's legitimately hunting and they are there to help you, guide you, on a task some are ill prepared to do alone, or they can simply afford the assistance. I don't feel as if this particular outfit falls under that category.

 

[Bigjay73]

That bull is like a high end escort. Great to look at, no skill involved to bag it, can't really brag to your buddies about how you made it happen

 

[brocksw]

Bigjay and Nameless, just winning the internet today.

 

[Hunting Wife]

You’ve replied to a statement I didn’t make. The very first sentence in my post that you quoted acknowledges that the bull in question could have come from breeding with red stags. The point of my post is that having red stag antler characteristics is not 100% diagnostic of the bull having been the result of breeding with red stags. I stand by that. I was already aware that it is something that is done.

Unusual antler characteristics that are extremely uncommon/absent in the wild occur on high fence operations without requiring breeding with other subspecies. The genetic selection pressure inside a high fence operation, especially one with selective breeding, is very different from that which occurs in the wild.

Both of your statements seem to acknowledge possible red stag lineage, then attempt to suggest it’s just as likely they were selectively bred that way. I’m saying they are not equal chances in this situation. YMMV.

 

[ImBillT]

Both of your statements seem to acknowledge possible red stag lineage, then attempt to suggest it’s just as likely they were selectively bred that way. I’m saying they are not equal chances in this situation. YMMV.

I never suggested equal probability or, if unequal, which was more probable. I simply suggested that looking at antlers characteristics should not be used diagnostically in such a manner, particularly “100%” which was in the post that I quoted. Now you’ve corrected me TWICE about things I never said.

If you wondered, I don’t generally consider high fence animals to be the same animals as their wild counterparts, and don’t generally consider high fence hunting to be hunting in the same sense as low fence hunting. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that I think it should be 100% illegal, but I don’t like it, and I think it should be more restricted than it currently is.

 

[Irrelevant]

Bigjay and Nameless, just winning the internet today.

I already called it @nick87 won today... nameless won in '19 when he wrote that recap. Along with lots of other days since

 

[brocksw]

I already called it @nick87 won today... nameless won in '19 when he wrote that recap. Along with lots of other days since

Please direct me to Nick's post.

Namesless's post was bumped by a third party. He can't help the fact that he's got an all-star highlight reel that was worthy of resurrection. So I give him another W.

 

[brocksw]

Found it. You did declare winners before I.



damnit.
*Face palms extra hard