Nameless Range
Well-known member
I’ve seen numerous forests share this message recently, and I appreciate it.
Forest Service Issues ‘E-Bike’ Guidance
- Thread starter sapperJ24
- Start date
I think that horses/mules/llamas will eventually be re-evaluated in the context of modern times where horses are no longer the primary mode of transportation, or even a valid option for the common man. Who can afford horses??? You need land, feed, equipment for long-term maintenance. In modern times it's just the privileged elite who can afford it. This is not in line with the origins of horse exemptions where it was the common man who had horses. Horsed do more damage than bikes (whether ebike or not) and eat up forage needed for wildlife. Can inner city kids ever have hope of going onto public lands using horses? They might afford a bike or ebike but can't maintain a horse. Horses have become the vehicle of the privileged few who loudly try to close the door to any other options. Horse folks will likely send some hate my direction but I believe this is a valid point to bring into the discussion.
T
tjones
Guest
Most could probably afford boots.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
From my previous post:
Apparently you are not from the horse-west. History, tradition, and a ranching / traditional outfitting legacy are predominant ... not to mention the political power of ranching in Montana and other western states. I think there are more horses in the west now then there were in 1900. Albeit they are more for trails and other recreational venues, not ranching as much, but horses are here in very large numbers.
Anecdotally, there are many "inner city kids" who come to the west as adults and will sacrifice other things ... 'cuz they just gotta have a horse!
I'm not bought into this opinion but consider it a valid point considering todathe emphasis on underserved communities, reaching inner cities and such. I support a capitalistic view where folks that got horses and land probably worked for it. However, todays society just puts people into boxes where you are "privileged" just because you have resources that others don't. I always thought the strong cows were just pushing the weaker ones aside to get at the resources. Modern society sees one color cow pushing out other colors. I'd be ok putting everyone in boots to enter wilderness.
There are lots of feral horses across the West. Hopefully those aren't being included in the official count indicating an active horse culture.
I quickly looked through the literature and it seems most agree horse numbers have decreased. Feral horses shouldn't count for this purpose.
Table 1 U.S. Equine Population During Mechanization of Agriculture and Transportation Year Number of Horses and Mules
1900 21,531,635
1905 22,077,000
1910 24,042,882
1915 26,493,000
1920 25,199,552
1925 22,081,520
1930 18,885,856
1935 16,676,000
1940 13,931,531
1945 11,629,000
1950 7,604,000
1955 4,309,000
1960 3,089,000
The link below shows an approximate 20% decline in horse numbers from 2003 to 2016. There was a total of 7.2 M horses in 2016. So, the population has probably grown since 1960, especially if you count all the feral horses. It's hardly commonplace considering the overall demographic of folks using public lands. I'm ok with horses, but the economics cause it to be out of reach for most of the public.
Data Paddock | The Number of Horses in the U.S. and Other Equine Demographics
There are 7.2 million horses in the United States, according to 2016 survey data published by the American Horse Council. The US state with the most horses is Texas.
datapaddock.com
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
You got the numbers! 'Guess I'd better stay with my blinders-on narrow focus of this small area of prefix 406.I'm not bought into this opinion but consider it a valid point considering todathe emphasis on underserved communities, reaching inner cities and such. I support a capitalistic view where folks that got horses and land probably worked for it. However, todays society just puts people into boxes where you are "privileged" just because you have resources that others don't. I always thought the strong cows were just pushing the weaker ones aside to get at the resources. Modern society sees one color cow pushing out other colors. I'd be ok putting everyone in boots to enter wilderness.
There are lots of feral horses across the West. Hopefully those aren't being included in the official count indicating an active horse culture.
I quickly looked through the literature and it seems most agree horse numbers have decreased. Feral horses shouldn't count for this purpose.
Table 1 U.S. Equine Population During Mechanization of Agriculture and Transportation Year Number of Horses and Mules
1900 21,531,635
1905 22,077,000
1910 24,042,882
1915 26,493,000
1920 25,199,552
1925 22,081,520
1930 18,885,856
1935 16,676,000
1940 13,931,531
1945 11,629,000
1950 7,604,000
1955 4,309,000
1960 3,089,000
The link below shows an approximate 20% decline in horse numbers from 2003 to 2016. There was a total of 7.2 M horses in 2016. So, the population has probably grown since 1960, especially if you count all the feral horses. It's hardly commonplace considering the overall demographic of folks using public lands. I'm ok with horses, but the economics cause it to be out of reach for most of the public.
Data Paddock | The Number of Horses in the U.S. and Other Equine Demographics
There are 7.2 million horses in the United States, according to 2016 survey data published by the American Horse Council. The US state with the most horses is Texas.
This is an interesting idea that I hadnt really thought about.
What if we started looking at "impact" as what one human has. Where stock is allowed, there is usually a party size limit and usually ive seem it referred to as each "heartbeat" counts. So your dog counts. Each animal and human.
Usually the number is 12. That means 1 human could bring in 11 horses. In hunting season, outfitters will bring in a camp and supplies often making multiple trips and then bring people in and out.
Thats a lot of impact.
Tell me again why one guy on an ebike would be a problem in the same area.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Because his vehicle contains a MOTOR and because Smoke Elser didn't help him pack.
Things change. Regulations may need to change with the times. A dude on a horse leading 10 others would have a way bigger impact on my day than 1 guy on an ebike.
RobertD
Well-known member
Because one guy leading eleven horses through a wilderness area happens all the time
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Apparently you are not from the horse-west. History, tradition, and a ranching / traditional outfitting legacy are predominant ... not to mention the political power of ranching and horse outfitting in Montana and other western states.
E-bike clubs, who do little to nothing to build, clear, and improve trails for all users, have no political clout, merely self-directed interests. Stock growers, Backcountry Horsemen groups, and Outfitters have a proven trails maintenance and outdoor lands work history, as well as enormous political clout. It takes political clout, not merely an argument about mild impact of rubber tires, to facilitate "change with the times" trails' rules established by over a century of tradition and actual backcountry investment.
FI460
Well-known member
I bet I'm more likely to encounter a pack of 11 ebikers passing me behind a locked gate than a guy with 11 horses.
A lot more investment to keep those horses going.
MTLabrador
Well-known member
So for the crowd that wants to ban horses, mules, etc. from wilderness areas, you really want to ban elk hunting in areas like the Bob Marshall or the Thorofare? Because that’s exactly what banning horses means.
The arguments over noise, trail erosion, and all the other crap are missing the point.
The arguments over noise, trail erosion, and all the other crap are missing the point.
I dont want to ban horses and mules. I just think the regulations should be based on actual impact and not "political clout".
"Political clout" always leads to who has more money and that's not how we should decide who gets access. Ranching is dying. Time to change things up!
See post 121. Ranching doesn't have anything to do with this issue. mtmuley
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
'Sorry Muley ... I tossed that little straw in there and he grasped at it.
rogerthat
Well-known member
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Last elk season I went by a group of guys getting their “ebikes” out to drive the open road quietly. They gave us one heck of an angry look…which I understood to mean “I bought this for $4k and I guess I could being driving in my pickup right now like that a$$hole”. Ebikes definitely have their uses but it’s probably much more limited than the “influencers” pedaled…pun intended
Horses are not mechanized, nor are they motorized.
The fact that horses are a traditional use in wilderness and on public lands is just one more of many reasons not to allow electric motorcycles where horses are used.
Pack strings and silent fast forms of transportation on the same trail do not mix well.
My mother has a couple horses including my old horse from my childhood. She makes maybe $50k a year.
When I was a teen 13-20 years ago, my parents and I would pack in and hunt elk with horses all the time. Parents worked in a lumber mill and drove log trucks. Not exactly the rich elite.
Some people think that only rich kids grew up skiiing too. Used gear or rentals and $12 lift tickets. Elite stuff.
The fact that horses are a traditional use in wilderness and on public lands is just one more of many reasons not to allow electric motorcycles where horses are used.
Pack strings and silent fast forms of transportation on the same trail do not mix well.
My mother has a couple horses including my old horse from my childhood. She makes maybe $50k a year.
When I was a teen 13-20 years ago, my parents and I would pack in and hunt elk with horses all the time. Parents worked in a lumber mill and drove log trucks. Not exactly the rich elite.
Some people think that only rich kids grew up skiiing too. Used gear or rentals and $12 lift tickets. Elite stuff.
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