JoseCuervo
New member
Leave "No Trace" after you cut a friggin 5 foot wide swath thru the forest..... That ain't a trail, that is a road...
F&G: Fat-Assed ATV Rider's misuse of ATVs is No. 1 complaint in 2002 survey
- Thread starter JoseCuervo
- Start date
Ten Bears
New member
That is because ATV's weren't even in the planning of those trails. There are many of "the kings roads" which are hard rocked and passable, but no longer shown on maps.
Or roads and trails that aren't even shown on the newer maps. The mentality is if they're not on the map, then they don't exist.
EG, answer this: How wide are the trails and bridges through the Frank Church???
JoseCuervo
New member
Which trails and bridges are you inquiring about? And where do you measure trail width at?
Most of them are wide enough for pack strings. Some are wide enough for airplanes....
Most of them are wide enough for pack strings. Some are wide enough for airplanes....
Erik in AK
New member
Well Good for Earl!! My guess is ol' recovering cardiac patient Earl is the mild mannered sort who believes in God and country, pays his bills on time, doesn't drive around with his turn signal on for no reason. I'll bet that when Earl is out tooling around the panhandle on his Honda, he sticks to the trail, except (maybe) for the occasion when he politely yields the trail to hikers or horses.
Its funny how advocates(of any issue) always trot out the atypical "poster child" of good bevavior for their cause.
Where's the expose' on the 26 year old itinerant day laborer, all 5'10" 250lbs of him, crashing through the underbrush along some timbered ridge top, 7 miles from the nearest legal trail?
I ask because, Ten, thats the dude most of us in the anti-ATV crowd are pissed off about. I have news for you, if fat-boy is wearing orange with a hunting license in his pocket and a rifle on his back...he's a hunter, not a poacher. He might be nothing but a shitstain with a hunting license and we can play semantics over his law breaking until we get blue-in-the-face, but he's one of us (for demographic and legislative reasons) whether we like it or not.
At some point you need to come to grips with the honest-to-goodness fact that for every law-abiding Earl and Ten Bears responsibly using an ATV for legitimate access, there's 6 or 7 fat-boys out there going places they shouldn't but go anyway because they can, because the machine makes the going easy.
Personally, I think the answer is mandatory registration and plates for machines, licenses for operators and access permits to ride on NF and BLM lands. Also, give F&G officers the authority to confiscate licenses.
TB, its not a slam on you I just think you're off base on this.
Its funny how advocates(of any issue) always trot out the atypical "poster child" of good bevavior for their cause.
Where's the expose' on the 26 year old itinerant day laborer, all 5'10" 250lbs of him, crashing through the underbrush along some timbered ridge top, 7 miles from the nearest legal trail?
I ask because, Ten, thats the dude most of us in the anti-ATV crowd are pissed off about. I have news for you, if fat-boy is wearing orange with a hunting license in his pocket and a rifle on his back...he's a hunter, not a poacher. He might be nothing but a shitstain with a hunting license and we can play semantics over his law breaking until we get blue-in-the-face, but he's one of us (for demographic and legislative reasons) whether we like it or not.
At some point you need to come to grips with the honest-to-goodness fact that for every law-abiding Earl and Ten Bears responsibly using an ATV for legitimate access, there's 6 or 7 fat-boys out there going places they shouldn't but go anyway because they can, because the machine makes the going easy.
Personally, I think the answer is mandatory registration and plates for machines, licenses for operators and access permits to ride on NF and BLM lands. Also, give F&G officers the authority to confiscate licenses.
TB, its not a slam on you I just think you're off base on this.
At least in some states this included, if you can get the numbers off their rigs, they get payed a visit by law enforcement.
I for one don't care if there are ATV's. They do need places to run. I just don't frequent these places, all I ask of them is that they respect me in the same fashion, or as could possibly happen, mountain justice prevails and the machine will be there for the law enforcement to find later....
I for one don't care if there are ATV's. They do need places to run. I just don't frequent these places, all I ask of them is that they respect me in the same fashion, or as could possibly happen, mountain justice prevails and the machine will be there for the law enforcement to find later....
Muledeer4me
New member
LOL 1-Pointer that doesn't matter ,with that statment that puts you in as one of the fat assed ATV riders.
I use mine in that manner and it hasn't made a bit of difference to these ATV haters on here.
If you use one your in the group it doesn't matter that you follow the rule's or are ethical ---welcome to the club !!!!
("WH- Yes I did, but on an open, legal, mapped and managed trail. The trail is open to vehichles if you have the balls to try, I don't so didn't. The ATV never left the trail to get to the elk. ")
There are org. that are trying hard to get it under control.
Along with mandatory registration and plate's maybe we should make sure everyone join's a club that teach's these thing's.
("HUNTING AND OHV USE
The BlueRibbon Coalition requests that state fish and wildlife agencies actively work with land management agencies to ensure that OHV travel management requirements are included in hunter education programs, hunter booklets and on unit maps to ensure that hunters are aware of any vehicle restrictions. We support the use of OHV by hunters. We do recognize that inappropriate use of vehicles during hunting season may cause unacceptable environmental and social impacts.
LAW ENFORCEMENT
The BlueRibbon Coalition supports the development and implementation of clear and precise OHV regulations and their strict enforcement. We also support uniform enforcement of all regulations governing land uses.")
I use mine in that manner and it hasn't made a bit of difference to these ATV haters on here.
If you use one your in the group it doesn't matter that you follow the rule's or are ethical ---welcome to the club !!!!
("WH- Yes I did, but on an open, legal, mapped and managed trail. The trail is open to vehichles if you have the balls to try, I don't so didn't. The ATV never left the trail to get to the elk. ")
There are org. that are trying hard to get it under control.
Along with mandatory registration and plate's maybe we should make sure everyone join's a club that teach's these thing's.
("HUNTING AND OHV USE
The BlueRibbon Coalition requests that state fish and wildlife agencies actively work with land management agencies to ensure that OHV travel management requirements are included in hunter education programs, hunter booklets and on unit maps to ensure that hunters are aware of any vehicle restrictions. We support the use of OHV by hunters. We do recognize that inappropriate use of vehicles during hunting season may cause unacceptable environmental and social impacts.
LAW ENFORCEMENT
The BlueRibbon Coalition supports the development and implementation of clear and precise OHV regulations and their strict enforcement. We also support uniform enforcement of all regulations governing land uses.")
Ten Bears
New member
I could easily say the same. (see)
JoseCuervo
New member
Ten,
Erik is not off base at all on this one.... Could you please show us where?
Erik is not off base at all on this one.... Could you please show us where?
Ten Bears
New member
Just as soon as he shows me where I'm off base.
JoseCuervo
New member
Why do the Blue Ribbers need more rules on their use put into the Hunting regulations? Are ATV riders too dumb to realize they need to talk to the land agency and get maps? That they need to do a bit of work prior to unloading their machines?
Do these ATV riders also need all the Highway laws in the hunting regs, so they can not break the law on the freeway to their hunting spot? Do the ATV riders need the Ten Commandments in the regs???
Erik in AK
New member
Ten, your "Earl" post was an example of how ATV'ers to a man, are law and trail abiding, model citizens. You offered it as an example of why the anti-ATV crowd is catagorically wrong.
I saw your post in the same light as when the talk turns to welfare reform, the libs always trot out some "model" welfare mother--clean house, clean kids, clean living, back in school. The facts of course is said mother is a rarity amongst welfare recipients.
Guys like you and Earl (giving you the ATV benefit of the doubt) are in the minority insofar as being responsible ATV riders.
Your past posts on this subject indicate (at least to me) that you take this issue entirely too personally. The criticisms levied by HT regulars against that anonymous sub-class of ATV-bound hunters who ride where they're not supposed to, are not directed at ATV'ers as whole (despite some of the broader statements that have been made) or at you.
The "problem" of environmental damage caused by pioneering "new" trails isn't fixing itself and most of us aren't hardline "zero ATVs" so much as we want to see the problem rectified. Therein lays the rub, it seems that anywhere ATV's are allowed there is considerable ATV induced damage. Many of us feel that the only viable means of making the damage go away is to ban the use of ATVs and Yes, the aesthetics of the "foot-mobilers" is also a consideration, especially during hunting season.
So, I contend that you're off base by making the defacto assertion that Earl Castleberry is representative of the ATV crowd.
I saw your post in the same light as when the talk turns to welfare reform, the libs always trot out some "model" welfare mother--clean house, clean kids, clean living, back in school. The facts of course is said mother is a rarity amongst welfare recipients.
Guys like you and Earl (giving you the ATV benefit of the doubt) are in the minority insofar as being responsible ATV riders.
Your past posts on this subject indicate (at least to me) that you take this issue entirely too personally. The criticisms levied by HT regulars against that anonymous sub-class of ATV-bound hunters who ride where they're not supposed to, are not directed at ATV'ers as whole (despite some of the broader statements that have been made) or at you.
The "problem" of environmental damage caused by pioneering "new" trails isn't fixing itself and most of us aren't hardline "zero ATVs" so much as we want to see the problem rectified. Therein lays the rub, it seems that anywhere ATV's are allowed there is considerable ATV induced damage. Many of us feel that the only viable means of making the damage go away is to ban the use of ATVs and Yes, the aesthetics of the "foot-mobilers" is also a consideration, especially during hunting season.
So, I contend that you're off base by making the defacto assertion that Earl Castleberry is representative of the ATV crowd.
Ten Bears
New member
ERIK, you don't have a clue (giving you the anti-ATV benefit of the doubt). Earl is a freind of mine, we have ridden together for years, and nobody "trotted" him out (he showed up on his own volition). Off roading damage is done by the minority. The majority of riders (the ones following the rules) aren't even noticed (by following the rules, few even know they were there).
Again, I assert, YOU sir, are off base.
Again, I assert, YOU sir, are off base.
I still must ask WHY should ATV's be regulated to roads open to passenger vehicles (common thought by HT anti-ATV crowd)?
Ten Bears
New member
ATV's, as a vehicle group, create less damage then passenger vehicles, and have the potential to distribute less pounds per square inch contact to the ground then shod horses.
Ithaca 37
New member
Ten, "ATV's, as a vehicle group, create less damage then passenger vehicles," Can you clarify that and explain more to us? Are you saying passenger vehicles cause more damage to public lands than ATVs? Do you have any figures showing how much?
Ten Bears
New member
IT, sounds like you have the "want to" to prove a point. So, put up your information, and we can debate it.
1-P, do you walk to work, to go shopping.., drive anywhere????
1-P, do you walk to work, to go shopping.., drive anywhere????
Ithaca 37
New member
Ten, "Can you clarify that and explain more to us? Are you saying passenger vehicles cause more damage to public lands than ATVs? Do you have any figures showing how much?"
That was the question. Are you saying you can't answer it?
That was the question. Are you saying you can't answer it?
Ten Bears
New member
Where did I say"to public lands"? I am saying that ATV's have a lower errosive force/potential when compared to "passenger vehicles". Do you have proof otherwise?
Yes, and you can find it the same way I did. Aren't you the one that was always saying you didn't have time to do everybody elses research? Do your own research because I already know you don't like mine.
Check out this link for a starter:
http://www.huntandlodge.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=002272
[ 03-26-2004, 11:25: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]
