" ENGLISH ONLY"

[Washington Hunter]

I think Matt is making things waaaay more complicated than they are (apparently just because he enjoys arguing.) The whole point of this thread is that there is no need to print everything in Spanish. It's a waste of money, and we all know enough money is already wasted on other things, like health care and education for people who are ILLEGALLY in this country. Why is that so difficult to understand? I still think it's only because you (Matt) don't live where illegals are a problem. Move to Arizona or Southern California for a while, see if your opinion changes (or take a vacation.)

 

[BigHornRam]

I hope the Boston terror alert is a false alarm. We need to do something serious about illegals coming in this country from both Canada and Mexico NOW! Is it going to take another 9-11 for the libs to get this?

 

[ELKCHSR]

Matt...
I do know that to be able to help out in the industrial revolution, it really was in the immigrant’s best interest to learn English; the higher ups didn't have the patience that is required now. All you have to do is watch the history channel to pick up on this topic.
There was too much to be done to make this country great with out having to back up and try to talk to underlings that didn't understand what was said the first time.
This is how the history was, and I see no problem with it in any way. If they don't speak the norm of every one else, then they need to learn it or go home.
I for one don't think I need to cater to them, when I traveled around the world, I had to learn a little at least of their tongue, not the other way around.
How many foreign languages do you speak?

 

[cjcj]

WH is right ....this thread is really about "english Only" and its intentions are to "save money" Send a message to worthless polititions....help deter illegals from getting around so easy that they don`t learn our language...will it stop illegal immigration? of course not!.... "it" like prop 200 [already passed] is just the "voters" way around the veto power of a liberal Governor. both of these measures will not stop illegal immigration..thats not going to happen until the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT imposes the 3 steps mentioned before. Matt just by stopping employers from hiring them will not do it, you need all 3 of the strategies. After all living out of a dumpster in the USA is better than the living some of these peopole had before. Plus we give plenty of welfare to illegals with or without jobs. So Matt if you would 'still" be against "english only" then you are part of the problem.

 

[MattK]

CJCJ- I am against English only because of the principle. Would I be stating the same thing if the title of this were "Spanish Only". I certainly would. The real question is would you be saying the same thing. I think not. Whenever a liberty (freedom) is taken away, I think it is a great place to fight. Call it being a liberal if you wish but I also fight for the liberty of owning a gun. The less this government puts restrictions on the individual person the better. The government should be used to protect individuals and individual rights. I could understand having English only if protected someone. Who is it helping? It isn't going to slow down illegal immigration. I would bet it won't slow the welfare programs or any other type of money the illegal aliens get. It will save a nominal amount of money in printing costs. I hope this isn't the "golden egg" your state has been waiting for to balance its budgets.

I only speak English. I don't live around a lot of illegal aliens. Both of these I will freely admit. If I had to I would easily be able to live around illegal aliens and I could learn Spanish if necessary. However, my principles will remain the same. I wouldn't like it if "Spanish Only" was presented so why would I like it if "English Only" is presented.

If you want to live in an area where there is only English spoken and there are absolutely no illegal Mexicans around, I would recommend Hayden Lake, ID. I hear there's a compound that has all of those features. You may have to get a short haircut though.

 

[cjcj]

Matt i`m afraid the whole point is lost on you....Why would AZ go to "spanish only"..? Are you living in a English speaking Country? ... Matt are you "hispanic"?

 

[Nemont]

MattK,

I have read this post and I am curious what freedom is being taken away by printing things in English only. What if the the immigrants from Norway, Sweden, Germany, Bulgaria etc, etc insisted on not learning English. Our country would be diverse and the tower of Babel. English is the langauge of the vast majority, it is the language of business and commerce in this country.
The point of not printing documents in Spanish is not to reduce welfare rolls or illegal aliens. Why shouldn't the Spanish speaking population learn to speak the predominate language of the country they reside in? When I lived in Germany for 6 years I learned German. Our history is that ethnic groups came here and they were absorbed by the the culture they lent there traditions and customs to the fabric of our culture in addition they learned to speak english so that they could partake in the American dream. I am sure they would have liked to have things printed in their native language but instead they learned to speak english.
I didn't read in the constitution where it said there was a guarantee to have things printed in any language including english so I don't see how you you can argue anyone is losing freedom.
What they are losing is nothing they can still speak spanish or any other language they choose but if you want to conduct business in an English speaking country then you will need to be literate in English. It is not that difficult.

Also I thought Del had said to knock off the personal stuff? The reference to moving to Hayden Lake, ID and getting a short haircut is profane and nasty.

Nemont

 

[MattK]

CJCJ- I believe I'm living in a country where freedom is something people have died for. I guess the point is lost on you. I'm not Hispanic at all nor do I believe any state should go to "Spanish Only", the same thing applies for "English Only". I believe we are a country that is a melting pot, just not an English Only melting pot.

 

[MattK]

Nemont- I never meant moving to Hayden Lake as either profane or nasty. I never said cjcj should move there. I was merely pointing out the difference in freedoms each of us attains as a U.S. citizen. There are places in the U.S. that are not tolerant of diversity.

Since there is no National Language, why would we want "English only", other than to disenfranchise a group of people? From what I understand the US could save a lot more money by simply not throwing an inaugaral ball (52 million if I'm not mistaken). That's a lot of pamphlets.

 

[Nemont]

Since there is no National Language, why would we want "English only", other than to disenfranchise a group of people?

How is "english only" disenfranchising anybody? Which group? Illegal aliens aren't supposed to vote anyway and those who are now citizens had to show a basic understanding of U.S. history and culture in English. Who doesn't get to vote because of their language? Explain to me why our immigrants prior to the Hispanic immigrants felt it was necessary to learn english but hispanics feel they shouldn't have to.

It has nothing to do with a National Language.

Also the inaugaral ball isn't paid for by the Federal Government.


Nemont

 

[cjcj]

Matt first a formost you need to "learn' the differance between State law [english only] and federal [inaugaral ball] Matt you just don`t get it.. and you make no sense. Matt if you want to discuss illegal immigration and diversity...then start another thread we can talk about a culture in which Pimping out 13 year olds is acceptable . You want that kind of diversity? |oo |oo |oo |oo

 

[MattK]

Nemont- you're right about the inaugaral ball, still quite a waste of money and I didn't say US goverment. I actually meant the money could be used for a lot better purposes than to throw a party.

Not all Hispanic people that don't speak English are illegal aliens. Also, there are approx. (as of 2000 census) 25% of the population in AZ that is Hispanic.

Under this law, if a state social worker wanted to advise a non-English speaker to learn English, the worker would be able to make that recommendation only in English, which would be impossible for that person to understand.

 

[Nemont]

MattK,
Did you read the sentence in my post about those who are now citizens? I made that very point. I know that not all are illegal aliens. Who would be disenfranchised by "english only"? Perhaps you could make a case for them to be discriminated against or if Jesse Jackson, Ted Kennedy and the Rev. Al Sharpton were in this argument they could make a case that the printing of things in Spanish is a "Civil Rights Issue" but it is not disenfranchisement.

So you see no need to have an inaugaral ball when GW is to be pres.? Did you feel the same way about the President and Mr. Clinton? There are tons of things that the money could be better spent on. You ever look around at the local schools? Here we have brand new state of the art team buses at $125,000 per but can't purchase up to date text books.

I don't see how the ball is relevant to this discussion.

Nemont

 

[MattK]

Nemont- I just threw the "ball" in the court, so to say. Yep, feel the same about the governors ball. The biggest argument I've seen so far for the use of "English Only" is to save money. I was merely pointing out, amongst all the waste there is in government, printing legal documents in Spanish seems to be the least of a state's worries. If someone can not read a ballot, pretty hard to vote. But I would agree in pure terms, probably doesn't disallow a person to vote. Also, I would agree with you on the schools for what it's worth.

Have a question for you though. Isn't having different documents available for different languages to the benefit of a state? It would seem to me a state would want everyone to know of laws, taxes, voting, rules, state programs, etc. I know wal-mart wants everyone to be able to use their cameras or put together a shelf. (The directions are printed in 4 languages)

 

[cjcj]

Matt there are over 300,000 illegals [conservative est.] living in AZ. J.F.Y.I. And its obvious you don`t know anything about this law [english only] Re-think your last post . |oo |oo |oo |oo |oo |oo |oo |oo |oo |oo hump

 

[ELKCHSR]

This is a good topic...

I will not embellish on Nemonts or CJ's posts, they were stated very very well.
Matt.
It has nothing to do with saving money, or making or taking away any thing from any one.
What it does have to do with one language is the fact that as stated before, if this country was set up on the concept of "Babble" then nothing would get done, and it would start to segregate our country into small groups. By speaking one main language, it helps to unify this whole nation into a solid unit.
Look at how the left has tried to keep this country segregated as much as they can by playing one group, and that is any one group, against another. I am not talking about going to the extent of Communism by any stretch. I believe we must keep it simple to keep it well organized.
There are prices to pay for any thing we take on, I truly believe that if this country starts to get into the habit of catering to any single group (excepting what we have come to realize as the norm) then we will not be able to stay united as a nation.

I don't see any where in the world that the concept of Multi-languages has worked for any one Government. Russia is the last place that it was so widely done, and look at what happened to them, they ended up drawing the don't cross lines back into the regions of their main languages... Well there was more to it, but that is part of the basics...

 

[MarvB]

Well....Just a few other points from the far Western front....

Under this law, if a state social worker wanted to advise a non-English speaker to learn English, the worker would be able to make that recommendation only in English, which would be impossible for that person to understand.

....and that is why there are interpreters!

Plus....just because some has the information printed in "their language" does not mean a- they understand it nor b- they will follow the instruction/intent of the written word. After all, the ones that are ILLEGALS already aren't following the law - written, spoken, or otherwise.

We have a fairly large SE Asian community up here (Hmoung, Laotian, etc.) and the local fishcops decided it would be a good idea a few years back to print some of the local fishing regs. in the native language of these folks due to the problems they were having enforcing the regs. on the local lakes and rivers. The outcome? Nothing changes, when ticketed they would just say they didn't "understand" what was written...it didn't matter that it was available in their language! Point being, if these people, as Nemont righty implied, would take the time to learn a basic understanding of our language they would no doubt also garner a basic understanding of what it MEANS.

Now getting back to what was stated earlier in the posts about the solution to stop illegals is simply to quit hiring them. When I worked for the USFS nearly all the contract planting crews were Hispanic, 90% of the thinning crews were Hispanic, and probably 65% of the BD (brush disposal) crews were Hispanic.
I could not tell you wether they were illegal or not as the only ones that ever spoke any English to us (the inspectors) were the foremans. These were some of the hardest working kids (most were in their teens) I've ever seen and I can guarantee you wouldn't/couldn't get 99% of the local (Southern Oregon) teenage communtiy to work as hard as they did and the older (my age ) population in that community would often rather sit around on welfare and bitch about the lack of jobs. So Matt, how does this work get done if the answer is to simply not hire anyone?

Sorry CJCJ...looking back through this I realize I'm getting a little off-topic...this was a post on printing in English right

 

[MattK]

MarvB- To answer the highlighted question- Hire legal citizens. You may not be able to tell the difference but I know in Montana, I had to get SS#, greencard, etc. to make sure of legal status for hiring. Those employers are legally obligated to do the same. I am not against hiring people, I'm against hiring illegal aliens. I hope you're not trying to say only illegal aliens will do the jobs because the employer would be breaking the law!

As to making "English Only". I have been reading a lot more on this through a variety of means. I am still against it. Here are my reasons: 1) If English Only were the law, no document would be "legal"/hold up in court if it were not printed in English. This applies to murder confessions, contracts etc. 2) What English would be the "official" language. I would assume not Elizabethan English or the Ebonic English. However, with the many dialects in the United States alone, which would be considered the "official English" to use. If I wrote a contract using my western drawl, would it not hold up in court? Southern drawl would have the same problem. Also, those that can not spell very well would have problems with English only! 3) 97% of Americans speak English. You may think this is a great reason for English Only. I say just the opposite, why create a redundant law. 4) Contracts which are created by a foreign nation between a US citizen or business and a foreign country, would not be valid. There are other reasons but I believe this is a good start.

In theory English Only would unite the country into one giant happy family. In practice it has never been able to happen (not that many states haven't tried as well as the US government.) It is nearly impossible in practice to make all legal documents be "English Only".

 

[Nemont]

However, with the many dialects in the United States alone, which would be considered the "official English" to use. If I wrote a contract using my western drawl, would it not hold up in court? Southern drawl would have the same problem.

The last time I checked written documents don't have an accent of any kind. That is kind of backward reasoning because if the language would or would not hold up in court has nothing to do with what language the documents are printed in. There is already "legal" english that attorneys use to discuss things and charge outrageous hourly rates. That is why an attorney in Atlanta, Ga can write a letter to an Attorney in Great Falls, MT and both know what they are talking about. The "legal" language is based upon Latin and Spanish is a direct descendent of Latin so not harm no foul.

The law in question did not make english the official language, it said public documents would be printed in english only. Has only to do with the State of Arizona also not the Federal government.

Contracts which are created by a foreign nation between a US citizen or business and a foreign country, would not be valid. There are other reasons but I believe this is a good start.

Wrong again, in most cases these are private contracts and not subject to the laws of Arizona. In addition most contracts that are signed are either translated into both languages or all business is conducted in english anyway.

Also, those that can not spell very well would have problems with English only!

Tell that to Moosie. He is one of the worst spellers on this board and yet seems to do okay for himself.

3) 97% of Americans speak English. You may think this is a great reason for English Only. I say just the opposite, why create a redundant law

It is not a redundant law, it is a response to a situation in a particular state. Maybe nation wide there are 97% english speakers but appartently near the border that is not the case.

You are confusing public and private documents and you applying a law proposed for the state of Arizona to all citizens in the U.S. That would not be the case.

Also if the case was that only english documents were legal then every Spanish speaking criminal should fully support the English only law. Every document they used in commission of a crime that was in spanish would not be allowed into court. Do you really think law enforcement and the courts would go that route? It is not how the law was designed. Think about this a LEO taps a phone and hears spanish speakers planning a major crime but the transcripts of the phone conversation are first printed in Spanish and then translated. Then under your logic the police would not be allowed to present that evidence in court because it was in spanish orginally. Doesn't make any sense.

You normally make pretty good arguments but you are standing on pretty shaky ground with your reasoning here.

Nemont

 

[MattK]

Nemont- Funny thing about my arguments, they were used by the Supreme Court in the United States (at least some were). The United States Government (it should be noted) has only written the constitution in one language (English). However, the US government has not enacted a law for a national language because of the reasons I have given. They have not enacted any type of English Only because of the ramifications of a law like this has. It tends to create more problems than it solves.

If a state wishes to only print documents in one language, the individual agencies should do so without a law stating this. They would still be within their legal rights to do so. Whenever a law is created to mandate this, problems do occur. It can then be put before the courts and scrutinized by civil rights lawyers, which (with AZ luck) will create a situation where all documents will have to be printed in many different languages. Didn't AZ just lose its butt with the USO.