End Deer Baiting in AZ

[Flynarrow]

As some of you know, baiting deer is legal in Arizona and is becoming more prevalent especially for the unique coues deer. There is now an opportunity to end this practice as the AZ game and fish commission has new rulemaking proposed for public comment that would ban the practice...now a favorite practice of AZ coues-deer outfitters.

PLEASE help end this practice!! Support this change by contacting AZGFD NOW. You must email your comments to [email protected].

Deadline for comment is Nov 5 but please do it now before it is forgotten in the fall hunting rush. Please forward to any hunters that care about hunting ethics now and in the future. Spread the word far and wide NOW. Outfitters will be mounting opposition no doubt!!

Here is the text of the proposal:

Proposed Rulemaking Title 12 Natural Resources Chapter 4 Game and Fish Commission, Article 3 Taking and Handling of Wildlife

".....The rule is amended to prohibit an individual from placing any substance, device, or object in, on, or near a water source to intentionally restrict wildlife from using the water source to ensure wildlife have adequate access to water sources. The rule is amended to prohibit the use of edible or ingestible substances to attract big game for the purposes of hunting to proactively address concerns that baiting may facilitate the transmission of diseases among wildlife and placing substances in the wild that contain toxic contaminants and may also result in unnatural concentrations of wildlife....."

HELP PROTECT HUNTING ETHICS BY CONTACTING AZGFD TODAY!!

Greg Munther

 

[Oak]

Thanks for the heads up, Greg. I am right there with you on the baiting issue, but I can tell you that the majority of AZ residents are not. It will be interesting to see the outcome of this one.

 

[WapitiBob]

Not ethical to hunt over a salt block but ethical to hunt over a guzzler or an alfalfa field?

I have no problem with the current rules.

 

[genesis273]

I have no bearing on what AZ does since I do not live nor hunt there, but I do have an opinion on the practice. I live in NC where it is also legal to hunt over bait and it has always been an acceptable practice that will probably never change here. However, I have no interest in dumping out corn and sitting and waiting. I like to hunt instead by trying to figure out the deers habits and patterns, which may put me hunting an oak ridge where acorns are falling. I`ll hunt natural "bait", but not what I put out. But I don`t have a problem with the ones that do bait. No different than try to push my preference of gear to use (rifle or bow), or what caliber animal they shoot. I don`t want others to down me for shooting a doe with a rifle when they`re shooting nice bucks with a bow. To each his own....as long as it`s legal.

 

[WyOpitz]

I think there is a big difference between hunting over a feeder or salt block than a 1-2 acre food plot. I live in SD and have done neither but baiting an animal into an area the size of my living room to a feeder is a lot different than a "natural" food source. At least the deer have cover and a means of escape in most food plots. Not my style of hunting anyways. I prefer spot and stalk.

 

[Big Fin]

Where the rub comes on public land, where most the hunting in AZ happens, is the territitorial issues that pop up. Guys saying, "This is my spot. I staked it out with my bait pile." It gets pretty heated.

Or, when it becomes a contest of who can provide the biggest bait pile to keep deer away from the other bait piles. That gets ridiculous and even if limits are placed on the amount of bait a person can set out, those rules get violated or somehow circumvented by having wife and children dump their maximum allowed bait piles right next to Dad's.

I really don't care if people want to shoot deer over bait, from a "supposed" ethical standpoint. Knock yourself out. Not something I will ever do, but I really don't care if others do.

I disagree with the analogies to water tanks and guzzlers. Those are put their for conservation purposes at huge cost and effort. In many instances, without those guzzlers, wildlife would be gone, given the impacts their habitats have suffered from development and non-native plant/animal species. Nothing in the baiting world is done for conservation purposes. I would have no problem if arid western states put some sort of restrictions on proximity of allowed hunting near man-made guzzlers.

Personally, I see big differences in 100 acre alfalafa fields in areas of agriculture than I do six-foot cones of bait. Fifty deer spread out over a huge alfalfa field have miniscule chance of disease spread when compared to the same number of deer at a bait pile. Others may disagree, but the research shows such to be the case.

I see big differences between baiting and guzzlers and agriculture. I do not consider the analogies poeple often make on these topics to be germaine to the discussion of baiting.

What I do care about is when it comes to the controversies it creates among hunters, I have no use for it. And, that does not address the disease issue at all, which to me is one of the biggest potential dangers of baiting. I have yet to hear a compelling argument that convinces me that baiting is a net benefit to wildlife health and conservation, regardless of the ethics debate.

Just ask the Michigan guys what their deer hunting, or as one friend calls it, baiting contests, have turned into. A truly sad day when that becomes the hunting heritage of a state that was once one of the richest hunting stories in our country. Arizona could easily follow that same path.

 

[bow hunter]

personally, i dont care to ever hunt over bait, but i certainly do not care if others do. as hunters we need to band together, not seperate. that is just what the anti-hunting groups want us to do. as long as another hunter isnt breaking the law, we should support them and their methods.

 

[Flynarrow]

Territoriality and loss of opportunity

As Big Fin stated, once a bait pile goes down on public land, the so called hunter will stake his claim to the area. I have personally had this happen to me in AZ, plus I could no longer hunt the spot as if i shot something there it would be over bait, of which I am ethically opposed.

The other big issue not yet discussed is ultimately loss of hunter opportunity. If baiters as a group are more successful in killing deer (which they most likely are or outfitters wouldn't bother doing it) in a small population like coues deer, then some other restriction must be imposed to compensate so not overharvest.....fewer tags, drawing only for archery, shorter season, etc. Something has to give..I have verified this with a AZ deer biologist..

 

[Craig S.]

I think this is a question of whether or not this proposal is based on biological fact based data or ones ethics. If it is based on biological data than I support it, but if not I don't. We had proposal like this a few years ago regarding shortening the lion hunting season. It was proposed because of anti hunting pressure, not biological data.

I believe hunting over water in the desert has become more of an issue and is way more of successful and highly used practice. I have hunted over water, but not often as I prefer to hunt by other methods which tend to lead to less hunter to hunter encounters while hunting public land. Again, this is my personal choice and in my own mind it is a form of baiting, I just didn't bring in the bait. I am not sure if there is any data out there comparing disease spread on a guzzler but ethically I believe hunting over it in the desert is way more successful.

Honestly, I believe this proposal might have been made out of a hunter ethic principle and not a hardcore biological reason. Just stating my opinion so roast me if you want. Selfishly I would prefer they let people sit water and bait so that those of us that like to stretch our legs can do so with less pressure.

 

[rhomas]

I have no interest in what regulations the state of Az decides to impose on it's hunters. I do have a problem with people who don't believe that different hunting styles from their personal preference is not ethical or moral. Many states no longer allow hunting deer with dogs, but for the time being we are still able to do so in my game zone in SC. How much longer our tradition will survive is probably limited due to out of state hunters and the money they spend in the state. You may ask why I bring dog hunting up and how it relates to baiting, so I'll explain. We also plant food plots and bait with corn piles here in my part of the state, unlike the upper portions of SC (where they also can't hunt with dogs). My area is the low country swamp lands of the coast. We don't have access to the type of terrain known out West, and there's not much area where a spot and stalk type of hunt can be done, simply due to the nature of land ownership and hunting access. For those reasons, baiting with corn and planting food plots is an important process for hunters who actually want to kill something for the freezer. People who go on about baiting and whether or not it is ethical are usually the same folks who don't believe that hunting deer with dogs is fair chase. Believe me, if you ever tried killing a deer that was being run by hounds, you'd quickly come to the conclusion that this style of hunting is much more fair chase than sitting in a blind shooting an animal that has no idea it's in danger. There is no difference in baiting with corn or a food plot than there is in hunting over a natural water hole, hunting a ridge line, an oak grove, fence line, or big agricultural field. There's no difference in baiting than using attractants such as doe in heat lure, or using actual live does and their travel routes or feeding areas as a means to killing a trophy buck. As a matter of fact, there isn't any such thing as NOT hunting over bait.....it's simply a matter of semantics and interpretation.

As for public hunting lands, here in SC, it's not legal to put up a permanent hunting blind or stand on public WMA lands, and it's also illegal to put out permanent bait piles and no feeders are allowed.....but by the same token, the state DNR plants food plots and also locates feeders and corn piles in different locations on those WMA lands. My point here is that if the state of Az (or any other state for that matter) wants to legislate against individuals claiming certain portions of public lands as their personal hunting area, then eliminate individual baiting on those public lands; but why prohibit private landowners from utilizing a method that may help provide food for their family?

I feel that as members of the hunting fraternity it's helping provide the anti organizations fuel to use against us when individuals with different procedures and hunting styles condemn some procedure or style that they don't personally like and try to prevent people from utilizing any legal method of killing game.

BTW, there have never been any reported cases of wildlife disease related to baiting here in SC, and a survey of hunters in this portion of the state will show that there aren't any of them who do not bait. If you don't believe it, then check with the feed and seed dealers in the coastal low country area and find out what they are getting for a bag of corn.........and how difficult it is to keep inventories in stock!!!!!!!!!

 

[WapitiBob]

I think there is a big difference between hunting over a feeder or salt block than a 1-2 acre food plot. I live in SD and have done neither but baiting an animal into an area the size of my living room to a feeder is a lot different than a "natural" food source. At least the deer have cover and a means of escape in most food plots. Not my style of hunting anyways. I prefer spot and stalk.

If I planted a 1/2 acre of alfalfa to attract game, it's bait. Deer can live without bait, they die without water. If "ethics" was really a concern, hunting over water would be the first to go, but it isn't.

 

[Craig S.]

I had a chance to look over the justifications for the proposed rule changes, but I still haven't had the time to look over the actual studies themselves. The economic impacts & affects on hunter retention & recruitment can be swayed both directions.

I am still not convinced of the motives behind the proposed rule changes. To clarify, I have never hunted over bait or baited.

 

[mdunc8]

"How much longer our tradition will survive is probably limited due to out of state hunters and the money they spend in the state. "

Who in the right mind travels to South Carolina to deer hunt

"For those reasons, baiting with corn and planting food plots is an important process for hunters who actually want to kill something for the freezer."

I thought it was too swampy where you hunted to even walk. How in the world can you plant clover in a swamp? Are you hunting rice fields?

"People who go on about baiting and whether or not it is ethical are usually the same folks who don't believe that hunting deer with dogs is fair chase."

I think I'll stay away from this one. I learned my lesson the last time.

"As a matter of fact, there isn't any such thing as NOT hunting over bait.....it's simply a matter of semantics and interpretation."

You're not serious are you?

"My point here is that if the state of Az (or any other state for that matter) wants to legislate against individuals claiming certain portions of public lands as their personal hunting area, then eliminate individual baiting on those public lands; but why prohibit private landowners from utilizing a method that may help provide food for their family?"

Because landowners do not have the right to increase the susceptibility of a common good to disease. Artificially concentrating animals increases the prevalence and persistence of diseases. Said diseases don't pay attention to personal property or political boundaries. Can you provide some biological reasoning that deer in South Carolina are not susceptible to CWD or some other disease?

"I feel that as members of the hunting fraternity it's helping provide the anti organizations fuel to use against us when individuals with different procedures and hunting styles condemn some procedure or style that they don't personally like and try to prevent people from utilizing any legal method of killing game."

There's nothing wrong with healthy debates over issues like this. Why should I sit back and let hunting practices that threaten our resource continue when the science (and common sense) clearly indicates that artificially concentrating animals in a very small area is not a good thing.

"BTW, there have never been any reported cases of wildlife disease related to baiting here in SC"

Has anyone actually done any research on the topic?

"a survey of hunters in this portion of the state will show that there aren't any of them who do not bait."

I find that hard to believe

 

[Devil Diver Down]

There is no difference in baiting with corn or a food plot than there is in hunting over a natural water hole, hunting a ridge line, an oak grove, fence line, or big agricultural field. ... As a matter of fact, there isn't any such thing as NOT hunting over bait.....it's simply a matter of semantics and interpretation.

I must be reading this wrong. I see a big difference.

I just got done shooting a bull elk after chasing bugles. Tell me, were the cows he was trying to breed the 'bait' or was it the hillside he was on? I did have to cross a fence line. Maybe that was the bait...

 

[RUT JUNKEY]

all of the sudden I feel like I'm doing something wrong. . . . .not too many places here in Indiana that your not next to an oak ridge, or a corn field, or bean field. . . .I see both sides somewhat. I do believe the baiting spreads disease for sure. Baiting is illegal here ( no need to really) I hunted in Texas once and they are all about 50 gallon corn feeders every 80 yds down there. I'm fine with that, just wasn't my style. Its all a personal thing, do what you want as long as its legal I guess.

 

[rhomas]

DDD, in the purely technical sense, the cows were, indeed, bait.

mdunc, unfortunately, we have a high influx of North Carolinians, Georgians, and Floridians, as well as people from many of the Northern and Mid-Western states who come down here because of our liberal limits, our turkeys and the hogs.
We plant the edges around the perimeter of swamps and wetlands.
Positively serious......there isn't any form of hunting that does not utilize some form of bait, whether it's naturally occurring, or provided by the hunter. If you hunt the rut, then you are using does for bait.......think about it!
Like I said in the beginning, I don't know anything about Az and I certainly don't know the propensity for CWD, blue tongue, or any other diseases out there. I do know that there have never been any reported cases of such diseases in the state of SC, and I don't remember any in Georgia or Florida, either (the three states I've lived and hunted in).
I happen to hunt with Joe Hamilton of the QDMA, and he is my source of information on the disease issues in the states I've mentioned, and specifically SC. This also answers the next portion about research, so obviously the answer is yes.
If there is anyone in game zone 6 (the coastal low country area) that doesn't use corn as bait, then they aren't killing any deer unless they have them behind a high fence. That's simply the facts of our environment, terrain, and hunting procedures. 99.9% of the deer hunters down here, hunt to feed their families. Even the out of state hunters who come for what is considered one of our trophy deer, buy and use corn..........that's why we have to pay upwards of $9.00 per bag if and when we can find some.

 

[genesis273]

If there is anyone in game zone 6 (the coastal low country area) that doesn't use corn as bait, then they aren't killing any deer unless they have them behind a high fence. That's simply the facts of our environment, terrain, and hunting procedures.

I hunted zone 6 (Orangeburg) for years, mainly in the `90`s, and never used corn. We killed deer too, and lots of them. I guess you have to know how to hunt using funnels and such. Again, most of my friends hunt over corn and I have no problem with it, but I have not seen a kernel of corn while sitting in a stand in years. Just not my thing. I hunt thicket edges and do quit well.

As far as "everything is bait", that is what most guys who hunt over bait claim. Me finding that certain oak tree that is dropping acorns that they prefer over others (the hunting part) is far different than just walking in the woods and dumping a bag of corn out.

This has nothing to do with the original baiting issue, but for discussion purposes.
Baiting is the norm around here and I really do think that the skill of scouting has deminished due to that. The thread that I started the other day about the young teen that I took hunting on the local refuge was a perfect example. I go on those youth hunts every year and my kids are successful every year. He killed 2 of the total 3 deer on that hunt out of 72 kids! That is a 2.7% kill rate! And he done it in the first 30 minutes! No, they were nothing huge, but it was the kids first deer. It is illegal to bait on that 9000 acres and no one can "figure the deer out". The other hunters tell me that every year. Why, because they are use to pouring corn out and waiting. Does pouring corn out work? Absolutely! But it`s just not my thing! To each his own.

 

[SWMontana1]

Some would even argue that sitting in a treestand or in a blind isn't hunting either... to each his own, I guess.

That should stir the pot... continue on.

 

[rhomas]

I hunted in Elloree and Santee back in the late 70's through the 80's and we didn't use corn back then, but we damn sure used food plots. Of course, in those days practically everybody hunted with dogs, and sitting in a tree stand with a rifle wasn't very common; not to mention bow hunting. Check with the folks in Orangeburg county today and see how many are either dumping corn or hunting over feeders or food plots. After all, a food plot is also just as much a type of bait, as a big oak flat. I know also that the Williams. Felkels, and Shulers all bait and they used to be the largest land owners in Orangeburg county.

BTW, notice that when I named game zone 6, I further narrowed it down to the coastal low country areas. Orangeburg is actually closer to the midlands than it is the low country, and the only reason it and Calhoun are in game zone 6 is due to the natural barrier of Lake Marion and the Santee River, or it would be in game zone 3. Maybe I should have stipulated that the counties of Hampton, Colleton, Beaufort, Jasper, Allendale, Dorchester, Charleston, and Berkeley are the areas where everyone uses corn. I know that all of the plantations and the outfitters certainly do.

 

[WyOpitz]

I guess it all depends on what one would consider "sporting". If you want to sit over bait, and you enjoy it...have at it. At least you are out enjoying the outdoors rather than sitting at home on your couch conspiring a way to take over the world. I could care less, it just isn't my cup of tea! Being from Wyoming, I haven't experienced this type of hunting.