Elk Tag Future

So according to Buzz, we're supposed to find common ground with people that loath hunting and trapping, yet kick to the curb wildlife hunting orgs. that have one view or member we disagree with? Not following that logic.

Do know Karl Malone puts his money where his mouth is when it comes to introducing kids to hunting and shooting sports. Also know that he's friends with Don P. so that probably makes any contribution by him meaningless to a few people here.
 
BHR, you are doing the same thing all of the other SFW supporters like to do. You defend the inappropriate action by listing all of the good things the organization does. By using your logic, it's ok to rob a bank as long as you're giving the money to the poor.
 
BHR,

You're so full of crap it isnt even funny. The groups I mentioned kicked themselves to the curb.

I find it disturbing that a "sportsmen" group like the MDF would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on predator "control"...mainly shooting coyotes. I also have a real problem with SFW and MDF thinking its a good idea to increase lion quotas in Utah to the point that finding tracks is rare. Trust me, when the houndsmen in Utah are bitching because they cant find a lion track and are also bitching because the quotas are too high...you have problems.

The best thing the MDF could do is distance itself from SFW...killing predators is mission #1 with both the MDF and SFW. Used to be the MDF was more into promoting habitat for mule deer. Not anymore, I recieved 3 issues in a row that had numerous articles about killing anything that would kill a mule deer...wolves, bears, lions, coyotes, etc. etc. etc.

Other issues with SFW, besides being anti-predator, is the number of permits that they have created that end up going to the highest bidder. You know, transferable landowner tags, commission tags, outfitter guaranteed permits, etc. etc. etc. I also dont support a group that fully endorses and backs outfitter sponsored NR tags in Wyoming. How do you feel about a group in Utah that petitioned and passed legislation in Utah to INCREASE bull and buck permits in Utah to "provide more opportunity". Keep in mind that the same year, they also got legislation passed to skim 5% of those tags based on those elevated quotas for TEN years. The very next year...they (SFW) successfully petitioned the UTDOW to REDUCE tag numbers because the age structure and integrity of the trophy quality animals couldnt take the increase. Guess what though, they still get the same number of permits for another TEN years based on the elevated quotas THEY WANTED. So much for looking out for the average guy, and now they dont get 5% of the quotas, they get more like 10% of the quotas.

It sure would be nice if SFW was honest with their mission. Its not about providing opportunity for the average guy. Its to provide trophy hunting for the wealthy.

Now on to the other groups that have kicked themselves in the balls. FNAWS and OVIS/GRANDSLAM. What a bunch of bickering bullshit that issue has been. Two groups, supposedly concerned with wild sheep and putting sheep on the mountain. Oh really? Is that why two supposed groups that have sheep and their habitat in mind had to drag out a dispute over a frickin' phrase...to the point of expensive litigation? Yeah, I want to belong to and support two groups who cant practice simple mediation over a phrase. Did the members get to vote on whether or not they wanted this issue to go to court? You know the membership that does the work and pays the bills. Not only no, but hell no they didnt. They do get to pay the legal fees and court costs though...what a great deal for the membership and the sheep. Un-freaking-believable.

BHR, If you want to belong to a club(s) that are anti predator, for outfitter sponsored licenses, for commission tags, for the wealthy sportsmen, favor litigation over simple phrases, etc. etc. etc. thats your business.

I wont and cant support that crap...and I will not support any group with the beliefs of SFW, MDF, FNAWS, or O/GS as they are now. If they were to make some serious changes to their orgs. I'd reconsider, but as it is now...they wont be seeing a penny from me.
 
drahthaar, on to your post:

You said, :"Its not only hunters who build their homes on winter range. Killing some game animals is part of management. What are you saying? Stop hunting?"

Nope, not saying stop hunting. I'm saying stop acting like a small child and realize that everytime you kill an animal YOU are having an impact. You bitch about wolves killing deer and elk and how much impact they have on wildlife. How many deer and elk a year do people kill in Montana? Wyoming? Utah? Arizona? Hunters dont impact wildllife populations?

drahthaar said, "What are you refering to when you say things are not being done in the best interest of habitat or wildlife mgt?"

Have you been playing rip-van winkle for the last 20 years? What state do you want to talk about? Montana I suppose. You honestly think wildlife management is being done in MT in the best interest of wildlife?

Heres a few examples...how about the state killing bighorn sheep when they wandered out of the Greenhorn Mountains onto the STATE OWNED ROB CREEK/LEDFORD WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT AREA because there may have been a conflict with domestic sheep grazing? That in the best interest of MT's wildlife?

How about the state of Montana subsidizing the outfitters with guaranteed business via the outfitter sponsored NR elk and deer tags? Is that in the best interest of MT's wildlife?

How about a 5 week archery season and a 5 week rifle season on bull elk where bull-to-cow ratios in many areas are less than 5 bulls to 100 cows? Is that in the best interest of the elk?

How about hunting mule deer in the rut in Montana on a nearly unlimited basis in areas where buck to doe ratios are less than 10 per 100?

How about having to extend elk season last year because Montana hunters cant kill elk in a general season unless they have 6 feet of snow? Then to top it off, rather than just extend the season for cow elk...they allowed bulls to be killed for an additional 10 days. In areas where bull-to-cow ratios are already in the tank! Great for the wildlife...right?

Do I need to continue...I have dozens more?

drahthaar said, "what are hunters doing poorly, not oil/gas companies, or logging companies, or whatever?"

They have let landowners, big business, outfitters, politicians, etc. take control of state owned wildlife. Through complacency we've allowed all the above mentioned to take consideration over actually what would benefit wildlife the most. Also, Montana hunters are as bad. I've heard people in FWP open houses propose things like shortening mule deer seasons to Nov. 1st...the hunters went absolutely ape-shit over that...why? Because they couldnt kill deer in the rut anymore...and they needed 5 week seasons to get it done. Never mind it would be great for the mule deer...as long as I get mine...thats all that matters.


drahthaar said, "As far as federal lands here, the tone that I see is lock it up, the best management is no management, eventually turn it into some sort of "recovered" wilderness, once all the roads are grown back in.

Wow, thats a joke. Please provide an example of any federal lands that have been locked up recently that you cant hunt. I think you've spent too much time at the local gin mill listening to the fat-assed atvers who can no longer drive up beside their 2 point mule deer they shot using the handle bars for a rest. Last I checked, there is no federal lands I've hunted in 28 seasons in Montana that I can not access today. If you can provide proof, I'll gladly change my mind. Just because you have to hike...doesnt mean its "locked up".

drahthaar said, "You are obviously the informed genius, what are your solutions to getting state agencies some more cash, or reversing the trends pointed out in the original post?

The biggest thing we can do as sportsmen is #1...take back control of our wildlife. Make wildlife and wildlife habitat the number one issue instead of tenth on the list. Quit catering to landowners, outfitters, hunters, etc. Do whats best for wildlife.

Increase funding for DOW/FWP, etc. Do this by increasing RESIDENT license fees. I mean do you really think a MT resident elk tag should be $20? It should be a minimum of $50 and likely more than that. Deer tags for $16? Come on...thats ridiculous.
 
I agree with Buzz. Number one is kill any outfitter welfare system and that will put a hurting on leasing as well. It burns by britches to do my elk APPS in NM and see what the odds are if I went with an outfitter VS solo. Why the welfare system is tolerated there I have no clue. I have nothing against outfitters and guys that want to use one but you should apply as everyone else, and then hire one if you draw. There should be no special consideration for them in drawing. Auction tags also are bullshit. A few here and there are fine but UT is a joke. AZ made a ton of money on the governors tag, reason why? because there was not 100 of them to action off.
I live in a state where we just had left over turkey tags go on sale. Guys I work with were complaining about the 10$ or so to buy them. I said then stay home and buy a butterball if that 10 bucks will break you that bad. Hell I bought 2 of them, I am going to take the boy on a few weekends of fun.
 
Oak,

I never defended "inappropriate" action by any organization. I only pointed out good things Karl Malone has done for hunting as an INDIVIDUAL. Never said a word about SFW.

As for Buzz's rant.......don't even know where to start with it. Waste of time.
 
BigHornRam said:
Do know Karl Malone puts his money where his mouth is when it comes to introducing kids to hunting and shooting sports. Also know that he's friends with Don P. so that probably makes any contribution by him meaningless to a few people here.
Click to expand...

Karl Malone is not only friends with DP (hmm, fitting initials...but I digress), he is deeply involved in SFW. Do I discount the good things KM does regarding getting kids involved in hunting? No. Is he doing good things? Yes. Should SFW, KM, and DP get passes on their inappropriate actions because they also do good things for the sport? I'll let you answer that one.
 
Buzz sure is consistant NHY. Doesn't take him very long to start making personal attacks and assumptions about other hunters that disagree with his POV. Here's a good example..........

"Not wanting to pick on you, but you're flat assed wrong on many counts here.

I was like you for a long time in regard to TEI and types like them. That is until you see the truth.

For starters, check out the hunting regs, you'll notice that TEI allows a couple bull tags to disabled or youth on the flying D. I grant you that isnt much, but its more than they are required to do...which is nothing. Also, if you look closer, there are lots of late cow tags given out for the flying D to anyone that cares to apply.

I also know that the other ranches TEI has, allow antlerless WT hunting to the public and at least one of the ranches also allows youth hunters to harvest smaller WT bucks. The problem is though, most dont even bother to ask, and you'd have to shoot a doe on your A-tag. But, if you wanted a great experience for a young hunter, you'd be hard pressed to find an area any better.

The other part you're not taking into account is the fact that the bigger bulls and bucks leave TEI property and stray onto public land. The public lands surrounding these areas are good hunting for the hunters willing to put forth the effort and time.

The problem is, you're short sighted and since you can't drive down a TEI ranch road and dust a big 6-point out of the truck, they're bastards for charging and not letting you hunt for free. How many other ranchers, guides, etc. charge people to hunt in MT? I guess TEI is the only one?"
 
I'm glad we don't have these issues in washington. Hell there is a state or federal park right around every corner and the huntin doesn't get any better than that. Not much for competition either!! Just belly up to a couple of cold drafts and pull out the shootin iron and spotlight.
 
raybow 1 said:
I'm glad we don't have these issues in washington. Hell there is a state or federal park right around every corner and the huntin doesn't get any better than that. Not much for competition either!! Just belly up to a couple of cold drafts and pull out the shootin iron and spotlight.
Click to expand...

:D:D:D:D:D sounds like my kind of hunt.. Where do i sign up:D I see these pictures of big azz bulls in the back of pick up trucks not even quartered in some posts. I want in on some of that!
 
schmalts said:
:D:D:D:D:D sounds like my kind of hunt.. Where do i sign up:D I see these pictures of big azz bulls in the back of pick up trucks not even quartered in some posts. I want in on some of that!
Click to expand...

Some sage advice I once got was "If you want to kill an elk next to a road, you have to hunt next to a road".
 
JEEZ!!! Where do you even start on a thread like this and hope to make progress!?!?!?
Everyone's taxes , thru appropiations to NPS, USFS, BLM, Refuges and state WMAs and parks support Habitat mgmt and wildlife mgmt to some extent--granted! (NOT here as TWRA gets NO appropiation from the State! Even "public desirable mgmt of Endagered plant and animal species are funded by hunters!)
BUT, "Consumptive" users voluntarily imposed seasons, license fees and excise taxes on themselves to preserve habitat AND wildlife. Hunters belong and contribute to habitat preservation orgs like Delta Waterfowl, Ducks Unlimited, Pheasants Unlimited, NWTF, RMEF etc. Anti hunters contribute to PeTA and HSUS!
Day Hikers, backpackers, birders, photographers,artists,skiers,etc are all thrilled to see wildlife on their adventures and critize us believing they would see more if only "WE" didn't consume....they would see no wildlife, not even a song bird if WE hadn't of paid thru the nose, mostly voluntarily, to preserve habitat and thus wildlife.
Users excise fees have been proposed a number of times on hiking, backpacking, birding equipment,etc like WE voluntarily imposed on firearms, bows, and ammo and fishing equipment. Fees have also been proposed for access. Who shot them down with huge lobbying efforts??? The Audubon Society, Crane Federation, Trail Clubs etc.
Make all the emotional arguments you want too but non-hunters get essentially a free ride!
BTW, I am still pizzed that the places we used to hunt Pheasant, grouse, antelope, deer, and turkey in MT for free with good buddies who live there are now controlled by Outfitters! Don't blame the farmers or ranchers tho!
 
Tom,

You contradict yourself..."Everyone's taxes , thru appropiations to NPS, USFS, BLM, Refuges and state WMAs and parks support Habitat mgmt and wildlife mgmt to some extent"

Then you say, "Make all the emotional arguments you want too but non-hunters get essentially a free ride!"

No they dont get a free ride...unless they dont pay taxes.

The problem you're having is that you, like many others, live in fantasy land. In your fantasy land you believe that since you hunt, fish, or trap that the only voice concerning wildlife issues, wildlife management, public lands, etc. that should be heard is yours.

That isnt how it works...and rightfully so. There are uses of wildlife...other than consumptive uses, that the public at large is just as entitled to as YOU are. Keep in mind...PUBLIC wildlife. They have at least an equal say in how THEIR public wildlife is managed. I'm not saying what they want is correct or what is best for wildlife, but thats the price I'm willing to pay to keep public wildlife in public hands. YMMV.
 
as usual, only part of the posts are read. guess the words to SOME extent and ESSENTIALLY were over looked. agree with Tom 100%. hunters, or consumptive users pay more than their fair share of the monies allocuted to these places. guess when you ignore certain words and think you are the absolute expert on something, you can spin it any way you want.
 
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