Elk City Wolves

[Brentster7189]

This is ridiculous.....wolves running through town. Hammer time this fall!

http://www.idahocountyfreepress.com/IFPPeople2.shtml

We had four wolf depredation/sightings/attacks between Monday and Thursday of last week. A wolf was seen chasing an elk between the school and the VFW. A wolf-killed pregnant cow elk was found right above the dumpsters. The wolves killed her, dug the fetus out of her and left them both to rot. A wolf attempted to bring down a yearling elk right below my house in the meadow. And another wolf-killed elk near someone's house on the other side of the hill from us. All of this wolf activity is unacceptable in our township. Call the governor's office at 334-2100 and ask him to implement the bill he signed to declare a state of emergency. This is very important. The wolves have driven the elk right into town (see photo). Some people may think this is neat but the wolves are right on their tail and more will be seen in town. I've talked to several people that used to feel free to take walks but not any more what with this activity in so close. Remember, the threat is not only from wolf attacks but also from the disease they carry.
Remember to stop and sign the petition dealing with the wolf epidemic. Copies are located around town. Then come by the hotel and record your sighting/encounter/attack/loss. Photographs of these events are encouraged.

 

[highmountian]

That would be fun shooting one downtown on main street.

 

[thegamegtr]

I know the hides won't be worth a crap--If we really want to protect the elk, the wolf season should be opened immediately. Waiting until fall will be to late for this years calves.

 

[Brentster7189]

Sounds like a good spot to sit on opening day of wolf season...maybe at recess by the sounds of that article.

 

[shoots-straight]

I know the hides won't be worth a crap--If we really want to protect the elk, the wolf season should be opened immediately. Waiting until fall will be to late for this years calves.

Their more apt to die from black bear than wolves. I don't think wolves on the outskirts of Elk City Idaho, is a crisis. It's a village in the middle of the largest wilderness in the lower 48. If you don't have wolves there, you don't have them anywhere.

 

[thegamegtr]

Their more apt to die from black bear than wolves. I don't think wolves on the outskirts of Elk City Idaho, is a crisis. It's a village in the middle of the largest wilderness in the lower 48. If you don't have wolves there, you don't have them anywhere.

Lolo Zone--just North East of Elk City Zone--Elk population in the two units which make up the Lolo zone 1995 was estimated at 14,000+. Elk population in those two units in 2010 was around 2,000.

Unit 10 the number of cows has declined from 7,692 in 1989 to 824 in 2010,
Unit 12 the number of cows has declined from 3,059 in 1986 to 534 in 2010,

Unit 10 the number of calves has declined from 2,298 in 1989 to 144 in 2010,
Unit 12 the number of calves has declined from 856 in 1985 to 38 in 2010

Bull Harvest in Unit 10 ~. 1,500 in 1989 to less than 150 in 2008
Bull Harvest in Unit 12 ~ 600 in 1992 to less than 100 in 2008

Wolves were introduced in 1995--I am sure that the crash in the elk population is just a coincidence

"If you don't have wolves their, you don't have them anywhere" Hmmmmm--Sounds Good!

 

[shoots-straight]

thegamegrt, all those numbers prove is that the elk herd has declined. I agree with that. I can also prove that through studies done in the clearwater that bears are the number one killer of elk calves.

You said:

Waiting until fall will be to late for this years calves.

My reference was in response to that statement. Show me how hitting the wolves now will save most of the calves that will die, when bears are the biggest killer of calves in the summer months.

Wolves were the straw that broke the camels back.

 

[thegamegtr]

Your right! Wolves are not a problem for the elk heards in Idaho. Wolves do not predate on elk calves. The bears must just eat a lot more when wolves are around--probably a nervous reaction. Just out of curiosity, what part of the state (Idaho) do you live in? Could you help me in understanding why the Elk heard in Yellowstone park has dropped off so dramatically since 1995--Oops, my bad--probably them dad gum bears again. Do you think all them hungry bears are responsible for the decline in the Moose population in Eastern Idaho?

 

[shoots-straight]

Your right! Wolves are not a problem for the elk heards in Idaho. Wolves do not predate on elk calves. The bears must just eat a lot more when wolves are around--probably a nervous reaction. Just out of curiosity, what part of the state (Idaho) do you live in? Could you help me in understanding why the Elk heard in Yellowstone park has dropped off so dramatically since 1995--Oops, my bad--probably them dad gum bears again. Do you think all them hungry bears are responsible for the decline in the Moose population in Eastern Idaho?

Hey, game, I don't think your reading comprehension skills are crap. Show me where I said that wolves are not a problem. Did I say they don't "Predate" on elk calves?
(and believe me that's the first time I've seen that phrase used).


Let me help you there buddy. No I didn't. The wording from your first post on this thread was:

I know the hides won't be worth a crap--If we really want to protect the elk, the wolf season should be opened immediately. Waiting until fall will be to late for this years calves.

Sense wolves aren't the biggest threat to young elk , I see no reason to get your panties all up in a wad.

According to the latest info. Wolves have declined in the YNP ecosystem's northern region. Down to 37. I heard that the elk herds have declined in this past year by 24%, in that region. You do the math. Do you think wolves are the only reason for the decline? What other predator, is at an all time high, and loves calf elk meat? I'll give you 2 guesses and the first one doesn't count.

Do you think all them hungry bears are responsible for the decline in the Moose population in Eastern Idaho?

Do you really want my educated opinion? Do you know what's happening to the moose?

Were we talking about all Elk. or just calves? You might want to start a new thread, or start over with your remarks.

 

[Baerman]

Let's not get all worked up here, that's what mm.com is for.

 

[Horn Seeker]

Killing wolves will do nothing but good for the elk....period. There are too many and in Elk City and surrounding area...there are REALLY too many. The study did point to bears being the number one taker of calves, but that study was also concluded before the wolf numbers REALLY hit their high...(didn't that study end like 6 or 7 years ago at least? I cant remember for sure) I would guess that wolves are having a pretty good impact on calves AND any other elk they can sink their teeth in...

Unfortunately, the wolf season pretty much isn't going to happen until September.....unless they are having one of them 10J(?) seasons. (not sure if that was the right code number for that emergency hunt, something like that!!)

 

[lamdilligaf]

Do you really want my educated opinion? Do you know what's happening to the moose?

Were we talking about all Elk. or just calves? You might want to start a new thread, or start over with your remarks.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure that you have an "educated" opinion. But, anyone that has ever been to a meeting that you attended is certain to know that you have an opinion on everything, educated or not, and are not hesitant to voice it as if it is the absolute truth.

 

[shoots-straight]

Do you really want my educated opinion? Do you know what's happening to the moose?

Were we talking about all Elk. or just calves? You might want to start a new thread, or start over with your remarks.

I'm not sure that you have an "educated" opinion. But, anyone that has ever been to a meeting that you attended is certain to know that you have an opinion on everything, educated or not, and are not hesitant to voice it as if it is the absolute truth.[/QUOTE]

By your responses sense you joined Hunt Talk, I'd say very few of your "opinions" are educated ones.

Feel free to dispute any one of my "opinions" both here and at any meeting that I may have voiced wrong info. I'll be waiting. I sent you a PM with my phone number. Feel free to give me a call so you can correct me anything I've said, "personally".

Too bad you won't be able to kill female wolves, and the pups in their dens quite yet. I believe you spoke to that in another thread.

 

[lamdilligaf]

post deleted

 

[lamdilligaf]

By your responses sense you joined Hunt Talk, I'd say very few of your "opinions" are educated ones.

Feel free to dispute any one of my "opinions" both here and at any meeting that I may have voiced wrong info. I'll be waiting. I sent you a PM with my phone number. Feel free to give me a call so you can correct me anything I've said, "personally".

Too bad you won't be able to kill female wolves, and the pups in their dens quite yet. I believe you spoke to that in another thread.

[/QUOTE]

I now usually avoid meetings because of people like you and the frustration that develops because of them, so why would I want to talk to you in person? You are right about one thing, it is too bad. Don't worry, I know you didn't mean it. Don't respond further. I'm done here.

 

[lamdilligaf]

Killing wolves will do nothing but good for the elk....period. There are too many and in Elk City and surrounding area...there are REALLY too many. The study did point to bears being the number one taker of calves, but that study was also concluded before the wolf numbers REALLY hit their high...(didn't that study end like 6 or 7 years ago at least? I cant remember for sure) I would guess that wolves are having a pretty good impact on calves AND any other elk they can sink their teeth in...



Horn Seeker, I couldn't agree with you more. One glaring omission in the calf mortality studies was the lack of consideration given to the effect of wolves eating carrion from winter killed animals. The removal of this historically significant spring protein source certainly had an effect on the diet of emerging spring bears. It would be tough to definitively measure this effect, but it definitely resulted in the bears having to work harder for protein in the spring, and calves were an available replacement.

 

[shoots-straight]

Killing wolves will do nothing but good for the elk....period. There are too many and in Elk City and surrounding area...there are REALLY too many. The study did point to bears being the number one taker of calves, but that study was also concluded before the wolf numbers REALLY hit their high...(didn't that study end like 6 or 7 years ago at least? I cant remember for sure) I would guess that wolves are having a pretty good impact on calves AND any other elk they can sink their teeth in...



Horn Seeker, I couldn't agree with you more. One glaring omission in the calf mortality studies was the lack of consideration given to the effect of wolves eating carrion from winter killed animals. The removal of this historically significant spring protein source certainly had an effect on the diet of emerging spring bears. It would be tough to definitively measure this effect, but it definitely resulted in the bears having to work harder for protein in the spring, and calves were an available replacement.

I thought wolves kill for fun a lot of the time. Wouldn't that increase carrion? This link quotes studies that are completed. According to researchers at this link, wolves don't have much impact at all. Seems your data is conflicting with the real world. What else is new. I'm sorry, what data, your just posting OPINIONS.

Wolves prey on ungulates year-round while bears feed on ungulates primarily as winter-killed carcasses and ungulate calves in spring, and weakened or injured male ungulates during the fall rut (Mattson et al. 1991). Grasses, sedges, forbs, berries, nuts, and roots comprise a large portion of a bear's diet throughout the year. After den emergence, both black bears and grizzly bears scavenge winter-killed carcasses. The availability of fewer early-winter ungulate carcasses to bears in the spring, due to wolf populations, would be little change from the present situation (Weaver 1986).

http://www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/bearwolves.htm

You might check this link, and edjumacate yourself.

 

[Horn Seeker]

It would be interesting to see the results of the actual study weaver or whomever did to determine most carcasses were already consumed before the bears emerged. If it is so....then so be it, but I do question it. I couldn't find a link to Weavers article.. Especially in Yellowstone where he was referring to, where, in those days, the elk numbers were nearer 35,000 as opposed to the 6-8 or thou they now estimate. Man, you'd think there would be a lot of carcasses available, particularly in a bad winter. ???

 

[fowladdict]

Lolo Zone--just North East of Elk City Zone--Elk population in the two units which make up the Lolo zone 1995 was estimated at 14,000+. Elk population in those two units in 2010 was around 2,000.

Unit 10 the number of cows has declined from 7,692 in 1989 to 824 in 2010,
Unit 12 the number of cows has declined from 3,059 in 1986 to 534 in 2010,

Unit 10 the number of calves has declined from 2,298 in 1989 to 144 in 2010,
Unit 12 the number of calves has declined from 856 in 1985 to 38 in 2010

Bull Harvest in Unit 10 ~. 1,500 in 1989 to less than 150 in 2008
Bull Harvest in Unit 12 ~ 600 in 1992 to less than 100 in 2008

Wolves were introduced in 1995--I am sure that the crash in the elk population is just a coincidence

Nice numbers, but you forgot to include the massive winter die-off of 1996. So your point that wolves have taken the herd numbers from 7,700 cows in 1989 to 824 in 2010 is wrong. In 1989 there was about 15k elk in the Lolo Zone. The winter of 1996 cut those numbers down to about 8k. They have never recovered since then. Yes the wolves have helped prevent that, but to make an argument that wolves have decimated the cow elk populations from 7,700 cows to 824 is false.

 

[lamdilligaf]

I thought wolves kill for fun a lot of the time. Wouldn't that increase carrion? This link quotes studies that are completed. According to researchers at this link, wolves don't have much impact at all. Seems your data is conflicting with the real world. What else is new. I'm sorry, what data, your just posting OPINIONS.



http://www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/bearwolves.htm

You might check this link, and edjumacate yourself.

SS, Did you even read the Park Service sponsored article that you cited above? Aren't you even slightly suspect of a research article on bear-wolf interactions published from the Park Service? If not, you should be. The article didn't address my point. They referenced early winter carrion, not late winter carrion resulting from winter kill and representing a major historical protein source for emerging bears.
Just for the record, I've spent the past 25 years surrounded by highly intelligent research scientists who have devoted their entire lives to generating and evaluating data. So, I would say that I am somewhat "educated" on this process. One of the first things you learn in this field is do NOT believe everything that you read. Secondly, it's a matter of trying to eliminate personal opinion from the decision process. We are extensively trained to evaluate and interpret data and make sound conclusions based on the data. I like to think of Joe Friday from the old Dragnet show; "Give me the facts maam, just the facts". So, let's look at some facts as they pertain to this predator-prey issue.

1: Over the past 20 years, parts of Montana and other states have seen a precipitous decline in prey populations (I will regard this as primarily elk numbers, even though we all know that other species of prey are involved).

2: Over the past 20 years there has been a large increase in wolf numbers over this same geographic area. This results in a very strong correlation between increasing wolf numbers and declining elk numbers. But, correlations are indirect evidence, proving nothing by themselves.

3: Montana bear numbers have also increased over this time period. It is a given that they are efficient predators, especially on calves.

4: In the western part of Montana, the mountain lion tag quota has been greatly reduced over the last 10 years.

5: Western Montana has also endured numerous, excessive cow elk harvests as a result of highly questionable management practices by FW&P biologists. (OK, #5 is somewhat an opinion on my part)

The combination of #1 through #5 has landed us where we are today. Not many sportsmen in western Montana are happy these days, so what do we do? Research in these areas is extremely tough. If you look at the work that has been done, you will notice that, other than scat analysis, many conclusions are based on a very limited population sample. That in itself make the interpretation of the data very difficult. It's very easy to end up with false conclusions. Cause and effect relationships are rarely the result of one action having only one result. #1 through #5 all interact to get us where we are today. If we want to return the elk numbers to where they were 20 years ago, then anything we can do to negate the effects of #1 through #5 will be beneficial. It looks like a good wolf season is coming this fall: better late than never. An increase in lion tags wouldn't hurt. Neither would baiting and the use of hounds for bear hunting. You can argue this issue until you're blue in the face, but one this is for certain. It takes a lot of meat to feed 600 +/- 100 pound dogs along with all the bears and lions.