Rogue- You appear to be ascribing to Manifest Destiny, which I don't totally agree in. We are not here to just subjugate nature to just our whims. It's nearly impossible and personally I don't like it. Now don't assume I'm not for management I am, but the health of the whole ecosystem is better for any type of plant or animal, even me and you. If you disagree with that, then prove me wrong. I'll admit if I am wrong.
Elk champion takes last look at well-trodden habitat
- Thread starter Elkhunter
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Rogue 6
New member
1 pointer,
Unfortunately, you can't be proven right or wrong. The enviromental movement is based mostly on emotion and bad science. You've made some very wrong assumtions about me. A clearcut on a rocky south facing slope is stupid. It won't grow back and is going to stay barren long after we are out of the woods. You can use a lawn mower to log on the coast and in 20 years you'll hardly notice. Management is not manifest destiny. The enviromentalist movement has nothing to do with management. It is 100% about shutting the forest down to everyone except hemp farmers and nature worshipers. Remember I have lived my entire life in the middle of eco-warrior central. I grew up with them, went to college with them, have them as clients today and watch them flood into Oregon from California. The "health of the whole ecosystem" reminds me of the spotted owl debate. Every spotted owl would be gone in a decade if all logging of "old growth" was not stopped immediately. The KMART store in downtown Coos Bay had a bredding pair living in the store sign. Bad science. I personal stood 20 feet under spotted owl in a pine tree in an oak pine forest for over an hour. Spotted owls are only supposed to survive in old growth Douglas Timber tracks at least 300 acres per bird. Just because a hemp wairing dope smoker writes a paper, does not mean they did not faulsify all their data to prove their point. This past year "lynx hair" was found in the Hood River National Forest. Instantly there was a cry from the hippy movement to shut down the HRNF to any human activity. Well luckily the truth came out and the "SCIENTIST" after getting caught admitted to planting the hair. Just this week Senator Wyden from Oregon submitted legislation to turn the HRNF into a national park which will shut off all hunting. The same end result the reject lying "scientist" was looking for. Former Demacratic Governer of Washington Dixie Lee Ray wrote a book called "Trashing the Planted." Governer Ray was a very liberal democrate and a scientist. If you are honestly looking for the truth I suggest you find a copy of this book and give it a once through.
Unfortunately, you can't be proven right or wrong. The enviromental movement is based mostly on emotion and bad science. You've made some very wrong assumtions about me. A clearcut on a rocky south facing slope is stupid. It won't grow back and is going to stay barren long after we are out of the woods. You can use a lawn mower to log on the coast and in 20 years you'll hardly notice. Management is not manifest destiny. The enviromentalist movement has nothing to do with management. It is 100% about shutting the forest down to everyone except hemp farmers and nature worshipers. Remember I have lived my entire life in the middle of eco-warrior central. I grew up with them, went to college with them, have them as clients today and watch them flood into Oregon from California. The "health of the whole ecosystem" reminds me of the spotted owl debate. Every spotted owl would be gone in a decade if all logging of "old growth" was not stopped immediately. The KMART store in downtown Coos Bay had a bredding pair living in the store sign. Bad science. I personal stood 20 feet under spotted owl in a pine tree in an oak pine forest for over an hour. Spotted owls are only supposed to survive in old growth Douglas Timber tracks at least 300 acres per bird. Just because a hemp wairing dope smoker writes a paper, does not mean they did not faulsify all their data to prove their point. This past year "lynx hair" was found in the Hood River National Forest. Instantly there was a cry from the hippy movement to shut down the HRNF to any human activity. Well luckily the truth came out and the "SCIENTIST" after getting caught admitted to planting the hair. Just this week Senator Wyden from Oregon submitted legislation to turn the HRNF into a national park which will shut off all hunting. The same end result the reject lying "scientist" was looking for. Former Demacratic Governer of Washington Dixie Lee Ray wrote a book called "Trashing the Planted." Governer Ray was a very liberal democrate and a scientist. If you are honestly looking for the truth I suggest you find a copy of this book and give it a once through.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Rogue, sounds to me like you've been listening to too much of the extreme views on both sides of the environmental issues. That lynx hair deal I don't believe happened in the Hood River National Forest as you stated. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure it was here in Washington. The whole thing was totally blown out of proportion by Rush Limbaugh and other extreme anti-environment people like him. The scientists in question didn't "plant" lynx hair, and they had no intention of trying to falsify data in order to make it appear as if they had found lynx hair in that particular national forest. All they did was sent a sample of lynx hair to the lab to see if the lab would positively identify it as lynx hair. They were simply testing the private lab that was doing the testing for the study. It wasn't a big deal like Rush tried to make it out to be. And as far as the spotted owls nesting in a K-Mart sign, I don't believe that for one second. Sounds like something else Rush would make up. If there was a pair of owls nesting in a sign in Coos Bay, I guarantee you they were not spotted owls.
Some of this stuff has been documented Bob...
I'm not sure which K-Mart sign it was in, but it was in one of them. I read here a couple years ago that the only prerequisits you had to show to join up with any of the enviro movements in the States was a drive and a "Feeling" that you were doing the right thing. No schoolin, no actual working experience, nothing but time to go help beat the drums and they would fill you in on what you needed to know, whether it was the truth or not...
I'm not sure which K-Mart sign it was in, but it was in one of them. I read here a couple years ago that the only prerequisits you had to show to join up with any of the enviro movements in the States was a drive and a "Feeling" that you were doing the right thing. No schoolin, no actual working experience, nothing but time to go help beat the drums and they would fill you in on what you needed to know, whether it was the truth or not...
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
I wouldn't argue the fact that many environmentalists don't have a clue about most of the issues that they have opinions on. But just because there are ignorant people out there, doesn't mean a clean and healthy environment is not important. As hunters, we should be pro-environment more than many people who never get out of the city. Also, don't you think the general population would have more respect for hunters if we as a group showed that we care about the environment? The spotted owls in the sign thing I just can't believe. I did spotted owl surveys for the Department of Natural Resources for 2 years, and I can tell you we only found spotted owls in old growth or forest that had old growth characteristics. There were huge areas of second growth forest with some very big timber in which we found ZERO owls. Barred owls were much more common, and they look very much like spotted owls. Maybe that is the species that was in Coos Bay. I have a wildlife biologist friend who I will be seeing tonight. I'll ask him what he thinks of the possibilty of spotted owls nesting in a city. I'm guessing he will just laugh at that idea.
Rogue 6
New member
Guess what WH the spotted owls in the Kmart sign made front page news here for about a year down here. I don't doubt one bit you never saw it. Common sense and reality very seldom get played in enviromental issues. The few eco-freaks to comment on it simple stated that the birds where deranged from pollution. Now that "I done be edumucated" it was probably mining pollution. One of my best friends and hunting partner is a biologist. We used to bow hunt over near coos bay all the time. Its still a long running ha-ha between us. Nice to know where you stand. Its always good to meet honest people collecting data to support their pre-made thesis.
Rogue 6
New member
I don't have time to listen to Rush. I wish I did, but I'm to busy trying to expand capitalism inspite of my states socialist management practices.
I lived in Woodinville Washington when I was growing up from just a little snapper, then after getting out of the Navy, got married moved to Monroe Washington and had a Tree Service/Extraction type buisness for almost 18 years. I have seen all types trying to save the world and a big part of it, most of those types don't have any education and they also are in the powers to be to dictate what happens. These very same people, even with my knowledge wouldn't listen to what I would try and physicaly show them problems they had and they still wouldn't believe what it was that I could show them because they were so locked into the pre concieved lies they have been fed over the years with what the schools and the news media spoon fed them. A lot of these very same people were transplants from other parts of the U.S. and had no understanding of the biology of the region. It does get very frustrating to have this continual wall that would have to be broken down every time you met some one new because of the biases, misconceptions, and lies that they had been fed their whole lives.
The only thing I can really say to all this rambling, is most people will run along the lines of "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".
The only thing I can really say to all this rambling, is most people will run along the lines of "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Rogue, I don't have a "pre-made thesis." I'm just telling you what I saw (or didn't see.) And it sure wasn't spotted owls in any second growth forest. I don't care all that much about spotted owls. What I care about is deer, elk, salmon, and other wildlife. (wildlife that I can eat) But just because the spotted owl doesn't matter all that much to me, I see no reason to cut down the little old growth we have left. You can't deny that the forest service cut way too many trees for way too many years, mostly in the 70's and 80's. I've seen this with my own eyes, it's not just something I read about in the newspaper.
Rogue 6
New member
Actually I don't agree that the Forest Service and Blm cut to many trees in the 70's and 80's. Btw those where absolutly the best blacktail hunting years. The BLM did however mismanaged alot of there lands by burning after clear cutting in dry areas, arial planting and not replanting anything in some clear cut areas. The Blm lands around here are trashed, the forest service nicer and the private timber lands are near perfect. It was the biologist in the forest service and the blm that mandated clear cutting. The loggers around here did not like them. If you go into really old cuts you'll notice select cut ment 1 out of 4 trees taken. In the 60's-80's it was 4 trees or more for every one left standing. Clear cuts didn't show up around here until the 60's. Private timber lands such as weyerhauser and boise cascade manage their property incredible well. On the coast and up in washington they can reharvest in 20-30 years. If more timber lands were managed correctly older stands could be very selectively cut by aircraine and the non game species would not be effected and the dying and beattle kill could be removed. Still giving the hemp wearing dirt bags there mushroom picking areas. Those same forests would not have the dramatic fires such as the Biscuit fire. I have hunting in and around the Kaliopsis Wilderness Area (sour biscuit fire). I'm in wilderness areas all the time year round. Go take a walk in to a doug fir old growth wilderness area. The forest floor looks like someone is trying to pile up brush to start a bomb fire, miles in every direction. The skys here in the summer are dark all day from some of the fires. When I was a kid my brother and I would climb up on the roof of the house in the summer and watch the forest fires in the distance, I have dug trail around my house. If you want better hunting you should be excited about logging. Again the Eco-warriors are not looking for management, they are for completely shutting down the forest period. They are doing it over long periods of time, one battle at a time with junk science.
Very well said. I have been stating this very same stuff over the last few years on the board, but those that grew up in Pine forests just don't understand. I was over on the tiller fire when the Buiscut was going on...
What I am starting to see in some of my travels into new areas, is that those that are trying to save the world is going to find out the world is a very hard place to live when you don't just let things go or try and manage it properly and work with it instead of just trying to lock it up to stay "The Same" forever. What an ignorant view...
Great post....
What I am starting to see in some of my travels into new areas, is that those that are trying to save the world is going to find out the world is a very hard place to live when you don't just let things go or try and manage it properly and work with it instead of just trying to lock it up to stay "The Same" forever. What an ignorant view...
Great post....
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
ok...I'm not sure what we're arguing about here 
I'm not sure if this statement was directed towards me, but I have nothing against logging. In fact for at least the last 10 years, my paychecks basically come from the sale of timber. So to be anti-logging for me would by very hypocritical. What I am against is irresponsible logging, and southern Oregon may be different, but here in Washington besides the excess logging the forest service did in the 80's, I think the biggest problem from a hunter's point of view, is the fact that after an area is clearcut, it is then sprayed with an herbicide, and that kills everything except for the newly planted fir trees. So tell me, what is a deer (or elk) going to eat in a clearcut that is growing nothing but fir trees? It's really pathetic is what it is. Blacktail deer populations are plummeting, partially from the hair loss disease, and partially from a lack of habitat and feed. Sorry but I just don't see how modern logging benefits wildlife, and especially PRIVATE timber companies.
Rogue 6
New member
The highest per mile populations of elk in Oregon are in the Tiogo unit which runs from Coos Bay to Roseburg. It is mostly Weyerhauser land. They open it up and let the hunters at-me. Weyerhause even publishes maps to the high damage areas which are always reprod areas. The elk love the new growth on fir trees. I have not seen the brows killing herbicides, but that would really suck. If you don't see how logging benefits game species you are either ill informed or dishonest. The best blacktail hunting is always in areas of 5-10 year old clear cuts, away from roads so the poachers can't spotlight them. When the reprod gets older it become bedding area and the fresher cuts the feeding areas. Old growth is empty of any real numbers of blacktail except with a couple hundered yards of a cut. I wish logging was still a viable way to make a living, I would love to be a logging contractor.
Bob, the post isn't meant to hit you, I am really sorry if it looked that way. I was just extending off from what Rogue was talking about.
Part of the problem with Western Washington as a whole, is that the food doesn't have that much nutrients in it to really support the type of animals and growth of the ungulates as does a lot of places farther east. Yes, they do spray quite a few of the clear cuts for things that compete with the doug firs. But that is a very short term thing, there are a lot of plants that will come up and that the deer and elk will redily eat. One is fire weed, the regions out there fill up with it pretty fast once there is an opening of sunlight for it to get started...")
Part of the problem with Western Washington as a whole, is that the food doesn't have that much nutrients in it to really support the type of animals and growth of the ungulates as does a lot of places farther east. Yes, they do spray quite a few of the clear cuts for things that compete with the doug firs. But that is a very short term thing, there are a lot of plants that will come up and that the deer and elk will redily eat. One is fire weed, the regions out there fill up with it pretty fast once there is an opening of sunlight for it to get started...")
Rogue 6
New member
Elkchaser,
I bow hunt up there all the time. I love that tiller area. I probibly saw your support crew when you were working. And I almost for sure walked some some of your fire trails. Remember seeing all the salmon fisherman near Shady Cove. You may have been watching me fight a pig down the rapids.
I bow hunt up there all the time. I love that tiller area. I probibly saw your support crew when you were working. And I almost for sure walked some some of your fire trails. Remember seeing all the salmon fisherman near Shady Cove. You may have been watching me fight a pig down the rapids.
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