E-Tip bullet failure?

[npaden]

Okay, last year on my elk I shot at 50 or 60 yards, the petals actually peeled off the bullet and I recovered it on the opposite side skin on my bull. Not really a failure, but the bullet advertises 99.9% weight retention so I was surprised that all 4 petals pulled off like they did. Close range, high velocity, impacted the rib bones, so I guess not completely surprising though.

Here's a picture of that bullet with the petals pulled off (bottom) compared to one with the petals peeled back (top) like they are supposed to.

This year I was very surprised when walking up to my bull to see the bullet sticking out of the entry hole like it didn't even penetrate the skin. This shot was at 250 yards with a 7mm Rem Mag so it should have had plenty of velocity on impact, so I really haven't figured it out. I'm a firm believer in the "if an elk is still standing you keep shooting" saying so I actually shot the bull 3 times and not sure which of the 3 shots was the one that didn't make it through his shoulder. The other 2 shots were pass thrus a little lower and behind the shoulder.

Here are a couple pictures.

Of course I was in a hurry to get him quartered up and off the mountain before dark (and I didn't make it anyway), so I forgot to pull the bullet, but I'm pretty sure it would have had 4 really nice petals that actually kept it from penetrating all the way.

The bullet actually did not hit the shoulder bone, it made a hole all the way through the shoulder and even into the ribs a little way before I guess it bounced back out because it never actually fully penetrated the skin. I didn't do a very good autopsy to see how far it actually made it into the chest cavity, but I don't think it made it very far.

Both of the other 2 shots were probably fatal shots so the elk didn't go more than 15 or 20 yards, but this one has me scratching my head a little on my future bullet choices. I would hope that a shoulder shot with a 7mm Rem Mag on an elk would be a fatal shot, but not sure this one would have been.

Here's a bullet that I recovered from a mule deer a few years ago where the petals ended up staying fully extended instead of peeling back like a mushroom.

I'm guessing that the bullet on this years elk must have had all 4 petals go straight out like that and as a result make so much surface area that the bullet couldn't penetrate all the way through the skin.

Anyone with thoughts on this? Do I need to seriously start thinking about switching to a different bullet for elk?

Thanks, Nathan

 

[Bambistew]

Pretty common to see Barnes bullets flipped around like that on the opposite side. Hides are pretty rubbery. The bullet tumbled at some point inside the animal. Also common to see mono bullets lose petals when fired at close range.

Can't imagine it being on the entrance side after going most of the way through an elk though. Thats crazy. I've seen bullets just poking through like that, but always on the exit side. I've found lots of bullets just under the hide, or just breaking through the hide on the opposite side.

Switch bullets? Why? 100% weight retention, 100% of the time is impossible... There are a 1000 variables involved on terminal performance. If the end result is a dead animal, can't see how is it a failure.

 

[MtnWest]

Interesting for sure. You are killing enough critters though to draw some good conclusions on that bullets performance which is great. Same thing with broadheads happens, guy shoots one animal and brand "x" broadhead/bullet is the worst ever or best thing since canned beer.

250yds with a 7mag is just right, not too fast or slow so it should be a good indicator. If for nothing other than something to do maybe try your next bullet choice and see if it performs better or worse after a few critters.

 

[npaden]

Pretty common to see Barnes bullets flipped around like that on the opposite side. Hides are pretty rubbery. The bullet tumbled at some point inside the animal. Also common to see mono bullets lose petals when fired at close range.

Can't imagine it being on the entrance side after going most of the way through an elk though. Thats crazy. I've seen bullets just poking through like that, but always on the exit side. I've found lots of bullets just under the hide, or just breaking through the hide on the opposite side.

Switch bullets? Why? 100% weight retention, 100% of the time is impossible... There are a 1000 variables involved on terminal performance. If the end result is a dead animal, can't see how is it a failure.

I agree with everything you are saying, except I'm not sure the end result would have been a dead animal without those other 2 holes that I poked through it.

For sure when I quartered him up the hole went all the way through the shoulder at least 1" in diameter. I just didn't do a good job investigating how far into the body cavity it went once it went through the shoulder. I was just in such a hurry I forget to check it out. Really kicking myself for not pulling the bullet or checking out how much farther the bullet traveled.

It was just a shock to walk up and see the bullet like that on the entry side. At first I thought it must have been a dud or something, but it did travel 250 yards and impact where I was aiming so it had to have been a full charge. Then I expected to find an exploded shoulder bone, but then was surprised to find just a hole through the muscle.

I realize that the bullet didn't actually fail, it appears that it petaled out just like it is supposed to, it is just amazing that the elk's hide was tough enough to hold onto those petals like that and not allow it to penetrate. If you look real close there is a dent on the end of the bullet where it must have impacted bone or something maybe on the way back out? I messed with the bullet pushing it and pulling it and it was stuck in the hide and would have taken a knife to cut it out. It would push into the elk as far as I could push it with my finger then spring right back out.

Never seen anything like it.

 

[ScottP]

Hmmm... that is really strange.

I've recovered a handful of Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX shot through elk, deer, and goat from 40 to 160yds range. All have been perfectly peeled back with no loss of petals or unusual deformity, FWIW. I think majority were elk shot by my wife at quartering away angles.

 

[St52v]

I would be switching!!! Yes the end result was dead animals and not every bullet performs perfectly on every shot , but that is just unexceptable!!! If you only had a small window to shoot through and that one bullet performed the way it did without the opertunity to follow up you would not have a dead elk! Confidence is everything!! I would not have that with that bullet anymore. Were these factory loads, hand loads?? Weight of bullet ?? Too many other good bullets out there to keep shooting those with your fingers crossed!!!

 

[2rocky]

I'd send that to Nosler and see what they think. It is not like you need to shoot lead free like we do in CA. The good ol' Partition has been boringly effective for me on Elk.

Pretty mushrooms do not a dead animal make. double perforated lungs do.

 

[Gr8bawana]

As long as the elk hit the ground and you had penetration like that why fix what aint broke?

 

[ida homer]

I've had good luck with Accubonds, but never shot E-tips. We have taken 1 bear, 2 bucks, 1 doe and 4 elk with them. Not an immense amount of data, but all 9 shots on those critters mushroomed as advertised. From 8 yards being the shortest to 410 being the longest.

If I remember right, most of them were stuck on the offside hide, I have only had 1 or 2 pass through.

 

[jryoung]

Send it to Nosler, the picture is what it is, but I just can't buy a 140/150 grain bullet travelling at least 2,300fps would just stop like that without some sort of flaw or other strange outside factor.

Crazy stuff man.

 

[mtmuley]

Yeah I don't see that happening normally. Shot the E-Tip some myself. Never recovered one though. Awful strange how it stopped like that. mtmuley

 

[Rooster52]

I tried E-tip bullets and could not satisfactory accuracy with them in my gun.Went back to Nosler partition for my elk hunting , deer and Pronghorn Hornady SST works for me.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

If I would have just seen that picture, the only explanation I could have come up with is that was the exit, and bullet had tumbled and tried to poke through backwards.

Honestly, I think you may have just witnessed a remarkable coincidence. Based on how odd this is, it could have probably happened to any bullet. Alot of animals have been killed with E-tip, TSX, GMX, Trophy Copper, etc. I don't think there is a bullet design out there that hasn't failed in some crazy way, but for my money, the monos are great bullets.

 

[sbhooper]

I would not pass judgment on that one performance. Weird things happen sometimes with any bullet. I had a Sierra .30 caliber165 flatten out and follow the spine on a deer one time. It did not expand at all. I have not used them since, as I had other incidents with them that were unacceptable also. I think that the coppers are good bullets overall, but until I am forced to do otherwise, I will be using Accubonds, Partitions, and Hornady Interlocks.

 

[npaden]

I posted this over on MonsterMuleys as well and a poster over there and a poster asked me what my conclusion was. I've been thinking about this for a few weeks and here's my conclusion.

I think that my conclusion is that it wasn't a bullet or load failure.

It was the absolute perfect (or exactly opposite of perfect actually) scenario that resulted in a perfectly expanded bullet that didn't penetrate the body cavity fully and would have resulted in a wounded bull that would have probably survived if that was the only shot that I had taken. At 250 yards there was still plenty of velocity to petal the bullet back, but not enough to make the full curl and allow it to penetrate through the skin without something hard on the other side to stop the skin from stretching as the bullet tried to keep going. If all 4 petals were fully extended it would have been almost 2" in diameter.

I think if it had hit bone that it would have broken on through the skin and penetrated further. I think that elk hide is a lot tougher and thicker than we give it credit for, especially a bull elk shoulder hide.

I'm not sure I'm going to switch bullets. I am just not going to be as confident in a high shoulder shot placement as I had been in the past. The other 2 shots were both lethal shots and pass throughs. Even with a 7mm Rem Mag a shoulder shot on a bull elk at 250 yards probably isn't the best shot selection. At least not with the E-Tip bullets.

That's my thoughts. I've been shooting these for 5 years now and have shot 5 bull elk with them and 3 mule deer bucks as well as several whitetails and pigs and haven't lost an animal that I shot with them. I've recovered more bullets that I would have expected which tells me that they are doing a good job of imparting all the energy available to the animal, but I think penetration might be lacking a little as a result.

I switched to these after some of the lead studies where they were finding lead fragments in meat and with a young son (kids are more suseptible to lead poisoning) thought that it wasn't worth the risk when there were quality bullets available that weren't lead. Before that I shot accubonds and they for sure seem to be a better penetrating bullet although I recovered one of those out of my first elk as well. It was an angled shot though, those seem to be the type of shots where I recover bullets most frequently.

That's my thoughts. Still interested in hearing what others may think.

Nathan

 

[Bambistew]

I recall there was a thread on 24hr campfire a couple years back about an X bullet with the exact same anomaly. Barely penetrating and bullet flipped around... I quickly looked for it, but no luck... but if I recall JJHack either posted it, or was part of the conversation. Either way You should post it there and see what kind of hits you get. Lots of shooters out there with strange results with mono bullets. You don't hear near as many with lead bullets, but maybe I just have my blinders flipped down?

I've recently had the same thoughts as you concerning eating lead/small kids and shooting Accubonds... I think I will slowly start replacing them to E-tips or ? as I shoot up my stock of Accubonds.

 

[sbhooper]

Did I miss something, or did you not say what grain of bullet you were shooting?

 

[npaden]

150 grain bullet. Winchester.

 

[RobG]

I've recently had the same thoughts as you concerning eating lead/small kids and shooting Accubonds... I think I will slowly start replacing them to E-tips or ? as I shoot up my stock of Accubonds.

:thumbup for the no-lead. I've been liking the Barnes TSX for quite some time.

 

[WT_in_MT]

I've been liking the Barnes TSX for quite some time.

Unfortunately, so does SFW.