E-Tip bullet failure?

[belly-deep]

Seems to defy physics, no matter what the brand of bullet.

All I can say is, if you shoot long enough, unexplainable stuff will happen.

 

[Gunner46]

I remember a long time ago I was camping with my Dad, uncle, and one of their friends. They were sitting by the fire one night sampling some of the local 'special water' and BS'n about hunting. My uncle was telling us a story of a local legend of what he said the old timers called an Elastelk. No body ever really killed one because the bullets would just bounce off !

Think maybe you ran into one of those ?

 

[danr55]

I've seen elk shot at extreme quartering angles actually flip around after initial impact and had the bullet come out the same side it went in, so that doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is that this if described as a bullet failure. I presume a bullet failure is a bullet that disintegrates before it hits the intended target or one that explodes on impact. Seems that if you shoot true and hit your target where you should, and recover the meat, the bullet was successful. Just MHO..

 

[npaden]

I guess I tend to be too wordy.

Semantics discussions as to whether this is a bullet failure or not are why I started this post.

To clarify, I very much doubt that this shot with this bullet resulted in a dead animal. The other 2 shots that were behind the shoulder and were complete pass thrus are what resulted in a dead animal.

This was shot pretty much directly broadside and I fired 3 times at the elk and hit the elk all 3 times. I believe in shooting until the elk is down on the ground and not attempting to get back up. In this case the elk was still on it's feet for all 3 shots and then it fell. I don't know which of the 3 shots was the one that didn't fully penetrate the elk.

As to the semantics, I really don't think the bullet failed, I think it just met a set of circumstances that would have resulted in a non lethal shot when I would have expected otherwise.

 

[Ron Wright]

What are the chances it hit another bullet or broadhead?

 

[npaden]

I examined the hole that went all the way through the shoulder as I was deboning it after removing it from the body. Didn't see anything to indicate a previous wound there. Didn't examine the body cavity after I pulled the shoulder off, but I very much doubt it hit anything other than possibly a rib. Still kicking myself for not doing a better job of autopsy or pulling the bullet out of the skin.

For sure the bullet was STUCK in the skin. I could push it in farther but the skin went with it, I tried to pull it out and the skin pulled with it. To get the bullet out I was going to have to cut the skin around it.

 

[mtmuley]

How the heck did you mess around with the bullet by pulling on it and such and not recover it? Sure would answer some questions if you had it. mtmuley

 

[npaden]

It was stuck and we were in a hurry. I quartered out the back of it while the guy I was with quartered out the front. I just forgot about it in the rush to get it done. It was stuck in the skin so when my buddy skinned out the front it just stayed in the skin. I can give you the GPS coordinates where it is at, but I would guess it might have been relocated by now.

 

[MKotur325]

Cool Story. Was thinking about this... It was stuck in the skin, it must have hit something else to mushroom it out, any chance that one of the shots may have tagged one of those burnt out lodgepoles before striking the bull? It must have contacted something before reaching the bull to cause that deformation on the boat tail.

 

[pondweed]

+1 for the "hit a tree limb theory", that was my first thought when I saw the pictures of the country where it was shot and I came to this thread to see if that had been discussed....

...of course human nature being what it is, we gravitate toward explanations that jive with our preconceived notions, I'm always worried about hitting tree limbs

 

[npaden]

I really didn't think it could have hit a tree limb based on where I shot him as I had a good open window, but on the 3rd shot he was moving and I guess you can never say never.

The main thing that contradicts that though is that the hole that there was was a nice perfect round hole in the skin. If the bullet had deformed and opened up before it hit the elk because of striking something else first it would have put a jagged hole in the skin on entry.

I can't explain the deformation on the boat tail. The shoulder bone seemed intact when I boned the shoulder out and the hole went all the way though the muscle. To get the deformation on the boat tail the bullet would have had to hit something hard while it was coming back out in reverse and still have enough force to dent the metal. That doesn't seem possible but I have no idea how else it could have happened. The bullet for sure went in 5 or 6 inches before reversing course and coming back out though, there was a hole all the way through the muscle of the shoulder, I just don't know what the damage was on the other side as I didn't cut the shoulder off when we were quartering him up and didn't remember to inspect the carcass.

I've chalked this up to "crazy things happen" and am afraid I'm going to have to leave it at that. Even if I had recovered the bullet I'm not sure it would have helped answer the question.

 

[Formidilosus]

Okay, last year on my elk I shot at 50 or 60 yards, the petals actually peeled off the bullet and I recovered it on the opposite side skin on my bull. Not really a failure, but the bullet advertises 99.9% weight retention so I was surprised that all 4 petals pulled off like they did. Close range, high velocity, impacted the rib bones, so I guess not completely surprising though.

Here's a picture of that bullet with the petals pulled off (bottom) compared to one with the petals peeled back (top) like they are supposed to.

This year I was very surprised when walking up to my bull to see the bullet sticking out of the entry hole like it didn't even penetrate the skin. This shot was at 250 yards with a 7mm Rem Mag so it should have had plenty of velocity on impact, so I really haven't figured it out. I'm a firm believer in the "if an elk is still standing you keep shooting" saying so I actually shot the bull 3 times and not sure which of the 3 shots was the one that didn't make it through his shoulder. The other 2 shots were pass thrus a little lower and behind the shoulder.

Here are a couple pictures.

Of course I was in a hurry to get him quartered up and off the mountain before dark (and I didn't make it anyway), so I forgot to pull the bullet, but I'm pretty sure it would have had 4 really nice petals that actually kept it from penetrating all the way.

The bullet actually did not hit the shoulder bone, it made a hole all the way through the shoulder and even into the ribs a little way before I guess it bounced back out because it never actually fully penetrated the skin. I didn't do a very good autopsy to see how far it actually made it into the chest cavity, but I don't think it made it very far.

Both of the other 2 shots were probably fatal shots so the elk didn't go more than 15 or 20 yards, but this one has me scratching my head a little on my future bullet choices. I would hope that a shoulder shot with a 7mm Rem Mag on an elk would be a fatal shot, but not sure this one would have been.

Here's a bullet that I recovered from a mule deer a few years ago where the petals ended up staying fully extended instead of peeling back like a mushroom.

I'm guessing that the bullet on this years elk must have had all 4 petals go straight out like that and as a result make so much surface area that the bullet couldn't penetrate all the way through the skin.

Anyone with thoughts on this? Do I need to seriously start thinking about switching to a different bullet for elk?

Thanks, Nathan

That was the exit with the bullet tumbling. It was stuck because the bullet tumbled going through the elk with the petals peeling out just like into it other bullet. There is about zero chance that it was the entrance and it "popped back through". Either it was an angling shot that tumbled and came out the same side or the entrance was on the other side (which is a lot more likely).

 

[npaden]

Pretty common to see Barnes bullets flipped around like that on the opposite side. Hides are pretty rubbery. The bullet tumbled at some point inside the animal. Also common to see mono bullets lose petals when fired at close range.

Can't imagine it being on the entrance side after going most of the way through an elk though. Thats crazy. I've seen bullets just poking through like that, but always on the exit side. I've found lots of bullets just under the hide, or just breaking through the hide on the opposite side.

If I would have just seen that picture, the only explanation I could have come up with is that was the exit, and bullet had tumbled and tried to poke through backwards.

That was the exit with the bullet tumbling. It was stuck because the bullet tumbled going through the elk with the petals peeling out just like into it other bullet. There is about zero chance that it was the entrance and it "popped back through". Either it was an angling shot that tumbled and came out the same side or the entrance was on the other side (which is a lot more likely).

Well, after Formidilosus was the 3rd guy that pretty much said that I was smoking crack and that it was really the exit and not the entrance I went back and looked at all the pictures I have and also talked to my friend who was with me and I think you guys are in fact correct.

The images I have etched in my mind are the 2nd and 3rd shots where the elk was headed down the mountain. Thinking it through on the 1st shot, the elk was still facing up the mountain and that bullet must have been the 1st shot.

Instead of a failure, it was indeed superb performance of a fully expanded bullet going all the way through the animal and expending 100% of it's energy and not quite being able to exit on the other side.

Again, we tag teamed quartering up the bull and my friend worked on the front while I was working on the back and so he may or may not have noticed the entry wound for that shot vs. the exit wounds for the 2nd and 3rd shots.

Thinking through all the options, there is just no other explanation for it, especially with the petals expanded and just the small hole as well as the dent on the boattail. It had to have been tumbling through the animal to make that dent in the boattail.

Hopefully enough folks will come back and read this and I won't have given a good bullet a bad reputation because it appears that it did indeed perform perfectly, it was my memory that was in error.

Thanks for helping me figure this out, especially since it took convincing me that I was wrong! LOL.

Nathan