Dubya trying to destroy the Kaibab

[JoseCuervo]

Hopefully the hunters in AZ will realize what Dubya is trying to do to destroy hunting in the West and will help to vote Dubya out of office in November. I can't imagine any AZ hunter would be stupid enough to vote for Dubya after reading this.

Battle lines are drawn over Arizona's forests

Published 2:15 am PDT Monday, September 13, 2004

KAIBAB NATIONAL FOREST, Ariz. - The north rim of the Grand Canyon is ground zero in the battle between President Bush and Sen. John Kerry for the future care and handling of national forests.
Here, in a hunting preserve created by President Teddy Roose velt nearly a century ago, the Bush administration is cutting old-growth trees to improve wildlife habitat and, under Bush's Healthy Forests Act, plans to cut down even more to lessen the threat of catastrophic fire.

This wasn't supposed to happen.
Under pressure from moderate Democrats such as U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California to cut a deal, the bill Bush signed was supposed to protect old growth while speeding the removal of brush that in Southern California had turned dry forests into ticking time bombs.

What few foresaw, according to environmentalists who have gone to court to stop the cut, is that in the arid Southwest, 100-year-old trees often are not much bigger than a foot in diameter, and thus within the harvest limits of the Healthy Forest Act.

Sharon Galbreath, executive director of the Southwest Forest Alliance, said environmentalists warned that the law would be misused, but it was a hard sell.

"Thinning is an excuse for logging old growth in the Southwest," Galbreath said. "And most of the old growth that's left in the Southwest is on the Kaibab Plateau north of the Grand Canyon."

Congress approved the law last year without the support of Kerry, who called it "Orwellian."

Kerry, meanwhile, has since unveiled his own plan. It would take money currently used to subsidize logging to pay for thinning operations, rather than subsidizing thinning by letting loggers cut larger-diameter trees as well as the small stuff. He also would focus thinning on community protection, and put young people into the forests to do the work under a civilian conservation corps.

"George Bush has taken advantage of 'Healthy Forests' to enable timber companies to log in remote and pristine areas of our public lands," Kerry said in announcing his plan in July.

Kerry's charge seems especially fitting in the spectacular Kaibab, some 200 miles from Flagstaff, the nearest town of any size. But wildfire is a threat more real and dangerous than a terrorist attack in the arid forests of northern Arizona - a fact that Bush underscored in a recent campaign stop in Phoenix.

"I understand the West," Bush said in touting the forest act.

While both Democratic and Republican strategists say the environment is not a top concern in the contest for Arizona's 10 Electoral College votes, forest management remains a polarizing issue that's never far from voters' minds.

A billboard in Heber, near where an Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest wildfire incinerated some 467,000 acres two years ago, declares that the inferno was caused by "enviroMENTALists."

"These forests have to be cleaned," said Jim Roani, a longtime resident of nearby Payson, where banners thanking firefighters still hang across the main thoroughfare. "But people don't even want to cut the trees killed by the bark beetle. These trees could be used to produce jobs."

Another longtime resident, Herb Bartholomew, sees the administration's forest policy in opposite terms. The Healthy Forests Act, he said, like the weakening of the Clean Air Act and other federal environmental retrenchments, shows that Bush "is too much in the pocket of big business."

Bush has broadened his lead over Kerry since the Republican National Convention, but most think the race will tighten again in a race to the finish. According to a recent Arizona Republic poll, one of the president's greatest vulnerabilities is his position on the environment, where Kerry has a wide advantage.

The League of Conservation Voters, which keeps close tabs on how politicians handle environmental issues, said Bush is the first sitting president awarded an "F" for his environmental policies.

And Kerry, the league said, is more of an "environmental champion" than former Vice President Al Gore was when he promised he'd be the environmental president in his 2000 race against Bush.

Kerry scored a lifetime 92 percent rating from the league for his votes on the environment since entering the Senate 19 years ago. Gore's lifetime score was 62.

The battle between Bush and Kerry has an echo in the heated 1st District congressional contest between Republican incumbent Rick Renzi and Democrat Paul Babbitt, the brother of Bruce Babbitt, the former governor and Interior Department secretary under President Clinton.

The 1st District is huge, about the size of Illinois, and covers virtually half the state and the thick northern and central Arizona forests where fires have charred hundreds of square miles.

Some think the winner of the state's presidential contest could be decided in this rural district where Democrats outnumber Republicans but are typically social conservatives and swing voters.

"If Democrats do as well as expected in Pima County (Tucson) and hold their own in Maricopa County (Phoenix), then what's left?" said Democratic strategist Mario Diaz. "It's the First District and the Navajo Nation that comes down to who decides the election."

Rep. Robert Matsui, D-Sacramento, chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee that is pumping a huge effort into defeating Renzi, said Babbitt's candidacy is what gives Kerry a shot at Arizona.

"Turnout is going to be very important in battleground states," Matsui said. "If this Arizona race were not contested, it would lean in toward the incumbent, and obviously toward Bush."

Forest management is one of the flash points in the Renzi-Babbitt contest.

Babbitt, a longtime Coconino County supervisor, announced the Kerry plan at a Prescott press conference, saying it was based on ideas from Arizona's Democratic governor, Janet Napolitano, and other Western governors.

Unlike the Bush administration, Babbitt said, the Kerry plan would make sure money is there to get the job done without robbing other federal programs or paying timber companies with bigger trees to thin out the scrubby ones.

"We need paychecks, not special-interest payouts, from our government's forest management," Babbitt said. "The Kerry plan will do more than the current economic policies of simply holding press events to tell people that our economy's improving."

Renzi, a freshman often tagged as "the most endangered House Republican," is a strong defender of the Bush policy. As a member of the House Resources Committee that helped write the act, he has tried to establish himself as a forestry expert.

"We have the largest Ponderosa pine forests in the world," he said. "But we've gone years seeing the timber industry driven out of business by the Endangered Species Act, the 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals or extreme environmental kind of rulings."

"The Healthy Forests Act brings back hope," he said. "It can not only allow new industry to thrive, but provides money for a new strategy for thinning the forests, crushing the brush, prescribed burns and addressing the wildfire issue."

But even Renzi said the Bush administration's plan for cutting old-growth trees in the Kaibab is no help. "I'm trying to bring back the timber industry and I've got people pointing to the sins of the past," he said.

While the policy is hampering Renzi's re-election, it's adding vigor to Kerry's campaign.

Kerry has campaigned in the 1st District with Babbitt, and he stopped recently in Flagstaff, where he picked up the endorsement of the Navajo Nation, where the League of Conservation Voters is working with tribal leaders on a $100,000 effort to turn out the vote.

But Republican strategist Doug Cole said 1st District voters well remember Bruce Babbitt when he was interior secretary under Clinton. "He was in charge of the Bureau of Land Management and the Fish and Wildlife Service that oversees endangered species," said Cole. In the view of many swing voters, Cole said, that links the Babbitt name to the wildfire problem.

"Arizona is Bush's to lose," he said.

 

[Wapiti Slayer]

 

[Delw]

Elkgunnner you got to do better than that.

1st off ,babbit is a piece of shit, no good for nothing welfare rancher, thats right welfare rancher. I am suprised you even put that post up knowing how much your against welfare ranchers.
The guy will sell anyone out if he can make a buck.
second:
the article mentioned the treehugging lesbian Janet napoliteno. theres a problem right there. she a psycho thats wants to be everything, she wants to run game and fish also( read about the mountain lion BS) she also locked all of Game and fishes general fun and a few more cause they wouldnt give it to her to spend.(shes another scumbag)

both of them are completely incompitant(sp), you can ask most of AZ about them and you will get the same answer.


Now as far as the kaibab(north). the loggin was stopped in 1990-1992( I forget exact dates). The way they were logging up there was selective, they didnt just clear cut any areas, they were extreamly selective.
Those parts in which they logged have good tree growth and some underbrush. They leave alot of deadfall and bunched it into piles for small game( turkey, squirrel's grouse etc. I belive this was working with our game and fish dept.). They didnt cut down poderosa at least I never saw a section where that happened. They mainly went after pine that was about 1-2 foot in dia, bigger trees they left alone as well as the aspens, scrub oaks and blue spruce.

now the spots they didnt cut are a fire hazzard waiting to happen. they are some of the thickest stuff I have ever seen, You cant crawl through it let alone walk through it and you will find very very little big game in it. Its constantly dry and I mean very dry.
with the drought we are having and this bark beetle problem I believe they should thin north kaibab in certain areas.

this article realies on the key word OLD GROWTH to get people upset and swing there vote the other way. but this type of OLD GROWTH is like those weeds in your back yard that should be taken out. Ive seen OLD GROWTH forrest in washington, oregon, idaho, montana, colorado and wy. , Az does not even compare.

and in the last 22 years I have hunted(with the exception of the last 3) almost all of the north rim, Ive been on probally every road out there on the west side as well.

so for me loggin I think would be best in that area.


Delw

 

[BuzzH]

Del,

I'm not sure how you've been on every road in the Kaibab and not seen where theres been logging in the past.

Its all over the place, as well as most forested areas north of the rim. Arizona has been logged, and primarily all of it ponderosa pine.

As to tree growth in Arizona...I've never seen ANY trees in AZ that have what I'd consider "good" tree growth. If you grow a 16 inch tree in AZ in about a hundred years, you got yourself about the best site potential in the state.

Also, I think you need to brush up on the definitions of "old growth"...old growth is found in every state, including AZ. You cant define "old growth" the same in Alaska, as Montana as Wyoming as Washington, etc. The geographic areas, topography, species composition, tree species, tree size, tree ages, etc. etc. etc. all contribute to defining old growth. Those things dont stay constant from Alaska to Arizona.

What does stay the same however, is that old growth is limited in most all forest habitat types nation wide. So are the plant and wildlife species that use/live in old growth. Another constant is that old growth is a vital component of forests and its value as wildlife habitat, etc. and is recognized and management has changed to address old growth issues.

That being said, there is plenty of forest lands to manage for logging and also plenty of forests lands to manage for old growth. You dont need 90% of the forested lands to be old growth, but it would be nice to have old growth as one part of an overall healthy forest ecosystem. From all the research I've done, we dont have enough old growth or even enough forest being managed for future old growth.

In my opinion, there is nothing in the healthy forest initiative that addresses proper forest management at all...old growth, fires, or otherwise. The plan isnt even properly funded, by a long, long, long shot. I dont think people realize the scale of what the healthy forest initiative is trying to achieve. Its an excercise in futility.

 

[Delw]

Buzz I never said I didnt see it. I said it was very selective. In washington we had huge clear cuts that were miles of stumps(this is what I would be comparing it to)

the north rim has alot of trees that are regular pines and not ponderosa.
we also have alot of ponderosas that look to be 3-6 feet in dia as well. these I dont see cut down or logged.

come to think of it your right I have seen some smaller ponderosa down, I just remmebered a area in the big springs section That they thinned out some of the smaller ones( I remember the red bark on the trailers)

I always considered old growth forrest that have those big old trees like in washington and some of the wilderness areas I have been in , in other states.

SO yes I do need to brush up on my oldgrowth forrest issues., which you helped out on thanks.


Delw

 

[cjcj]

One thing for sure is Delw is right on about the AZ polititions [Napolitano the dyke] and Bruce Babbitt the corrupt deal maker. But my 2 cents says the kaibab is very healthy and could use a little thinning in some places [mostly inside the Grand Canyon north rim] I have never seen them log that area [just inside the park] i guess they are gone wait until it burns [seems like such a waste] Buzz check with your Buddies at the Fredonia,AZ office and get their opinions. i would be interested in how they feel. they also operate a field office at Big springs [in the middle of the best hunting] and there sure seems to be a hell of alot of deer hanging around the Big Springs facility and the slew of gummit cabins along that big wide road going thru Big Springs.