Dubya to remove Anglers from Commenting on Dams

[JoseCuervo]

O. K. Pointer,

We've all heard Buzz, IT, and Gunner's POV on this issue. Whats yours? I can only recall a few insignificant comments of yours.

As for your views on the cost of electricity, fairly elitist attitude wouldn't you say? You may not care what the cost of electricity is, but most other people do. This is an important fact you need to consider before forming your opinion. Would the cost of electricity be more of a concern for you if it resulted in a pink slip? I'm not going to debate economics with you because obviously you slept through that class. But your narrow view of this does not allow you to see any remotely distant cause and effect.

Hey Paul,

When you sober up, why not look up the amount of energy produced by the Lower Snake dams. And then look up and see if BPA is a net importer or a net exporter of electricity.

Then look at the cost of alternatives to that miniscule amount of electricity, and compare it to the cost of the hatcheries, barges, etc....

You have got to be kidding that there is an economic benefit to not breaching dams.... |oo My guess is you were hitting the TJ Swann a bit before Econ class....

But this one has nothing to do with breaching. This has to do with allowing comment on licenses (and re-licensing). Are you really that stupid that you think a license issued 50 years ago should be reviewed without comment? Don't you think we have made a bit of progress since then, and we might have other issues and solutions to problems created by dams?

 

[1_pointer]

My POV is that comments by all who care to comment should at least be read. That's it.

I can also understand the pink slip/electricity issue as my dad work at a powerplant. But, just like with my line of work if the public (IMO a river is a public resource as is the rangelands) decides that a range manager is not needed on the Salt Lake BLM district I'll either have to get another job or move. It would suck, but I'm pretty sure that I could find a decent job in a place I wouldn't mind living. I've made choices and sacrifices that allow me that latitude. If other's didn't, that's their business. I'm sorta 'Republican' that way (bad joke, I know). Also, I don't see that view as being elitist as I didn't say that other would not be negatively effected, just that I wouldn't. Thus, the cost of electricity would not be the deciding factor for me on the issue. You'd have to know me better to know that I don't stress out too much about money, just the way I am. I don't like welfare and have little compassion for people that can't afford the lifestyle they choose. I live within my means, so should they. If they want a better lifestyle I feel there are multiple opportunities and avenues to get that.

PS-Glad to hear you got the .358 bbl on your Rambler up and running. Congrats on the elk.

 

[BigHornRam]

Pointer,

You must see that the process gets bogged down by all the commenting, talking, debating, documenting, and on and on. Is it any wonder why nothing gets acomplished in government? Most of this "process" is just used as a means of delay. We elect people to make these decisions. Let's let them do there jobs and not mire them in beauracracy.

My point about the overnight doubling of electricity was that a whole lot more people will lose their job beside the powerplant manager or the range scientist. This rise in price will affect more than just jobs, it will affect the cost of every item you consume as well. Think about it. We don't need the price of electricity to double because of beauracracy, or a few people wanting to play out their agenda.

I've noticed in past comments of yours, that the Bank of Pointer is run by Mrs. P. You pulled a Kerry and snagged a rich one didn't you, you old dog! Well not everyone else is so lucky so you might want to re-evaluate your thoughts on this one.

Paul

 

[BigHornRam]

Gunner,

I believe in one of your posts you commented that the 4 dams produced enough electricty to power all of Seattle. That is significant.


The Palouse is a net exporter of wheat. So f-----g what? Does this mean they should stop growing wheat there?

What is the cost to breach the 4 dams? That cost is significant. The only economic benefit this would provide would be to the company that gets the bid to do the breaching. And when it comes in at 4 to 5 times the estimated original cost, guess who gets stuck with the bill.

And yes this whinny thread is all about dam breaching. If you can make hydro-power unprofitable enough, or re-licensing impractical,the energy providers will throw in the towel, and give up on the dams. And were not talking 4 dams here, were talking about all of them. So because of this, it's my POV that YOUR POV is a POS!

Paul

 

[JoseCuervo]

Gunner,

What is the cost to breach the 4 dams? That cost is significant. The only economic benefit this would provide would be to the company that gets the bid to do the breaching. And when it comes in at 4 to 5 times the estimated original cost, guess who gets stuck with the bill.


Paul

And you don't consider all the $$$$ that would come flowing into Idaho if we had dependable fishing seasons? I know a bunch of people (myself included) who spend a ton of money flying to Alaska to fish on Kodiak, or POW, or on the Kenai each year. Money that would stay in Idaho if given a choice.

But you Anti-hunters and Anti-fishermen just want to end our ability to enjoy hunting and fishing, and instead want to make sure we have cheap electricity to sit on our couches and watch TV.....

 

[BigHornRam]

Gunner,

Give me a break! You already whine about how crowded the fishing is even in the miserable state the salmon runs are in now. I don't think I could bear to hear the whining when Idaho salmon runs become world class. And if anyone dared make a dime off the improved fishing, IT would be all over them like Elliott Spitzer with a stick up his ass. You guy's are too funny!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Sorry Paul....

The only reason I "whine" about the limited fishing area is that our Hatchery fish all swim back to the same spot (where they were dumped out of the truck/discharge pipe). And to be able to manage the Anglers, the F&G limits where we are allowed to fish, example So. Fork Salmon.

If you have healthy, sustainable Wild runs that are restored to the thousands of miles of Idaho's rivers that are in wonderful shape and could provide habitat for Wild salmon, there would not be a problem.

I don't know why you are an Anti-...... Been donating to PETA again?

 

[1_pointer]

Yeah, the process is can be difficult at times, but this is what our elected representatives put in place by pressure from those that elected them. Just the way our government works. Doesn't FNAWS want to be able to at least have their comments heard in regards to the management of the lands they inhabit? Should the comments/appeals only be allowed by those that use those lands for profit (grazers/loggers/etc)? Where would wild sheep be today if only the grazers could appeal the decisions? I'm betting not near where they are today.

No I did not snag a rich wife. Everything that my wife has she has worked hard for. She works full time and is 1/2 owner of a company that she has to help run. What's wrong with finding a wife with a good work ethic and ambitious? What's wrong with my wife making more money than me? I'm happy with what I make and what I do. Yeah, I'm lucky to have such a good wife, but I don't apologize for it.

FYI, you can talk all you want about me good or bad I don't care. But, I would greatly appreciate it if you never bring my wife into discussion. She doesn't participate here.

 

[BigHornRam]

Sorry Pointer,

I won't reference your wife again. You've made a lot of comments about her in the past, and didn't know that topic was off limits. Sorry.

You've commented here that your desicion making, and what forms your opinions are pretty much based on whats best for you. I would have to disagree. If you want your opinions to be valid, you need to consider what's best for everyone.

Wildlife organizations have to show equal consideration to all the concerns of all the people involved if we want our 2 cents to count. Sometimes we have to be willing to compromise if we want to move forward for the over all good of the animals we want to help. This is how you earn a seat at the table. The anti-whatever's are only concerned about what's best for them. IMO they do not deserve a seat. That's my point, take it for what it's worth.

IT, and Gunner often bait me into a combative debate. Again, sorry I crossed the line and drug you into it.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Sorry Pointer,


Wildlife organizations have to show equal consideration to all the concerns of all the people involved if we want our 2 cents to count. Sometimes we have to be willing to compromise if we want to move forward for the over all good of the animals we want to help. This is how you earn a seat at the table. The anti-whatever's are only concerned about what's best for them. IMO they do not deserve a seat. That's my point, take it for what it's worth.

IT, and Gunner often bait me into a combative debate. Again, sorry I crossed the line and drug you into it.

Paul,
If you want to find a "compromise", go look in the Dictionary between "Chickenshit" and "Coward"! Why on Earth would you want to compromise on Wildlife issues? I have a responsiblity to my children, and to future generations to make sure hunting and fishing is BETTER than it is today. That each succeeding generation can be free from the past mistakes of the previous generation's destruction of hunting and fishing opportunities. |oo

 

[BigHornRam]

Gunner,

Explain this. In Oct. 2001, I drove downstream from North Fork to the mouth of the Middle Fork. For the majority of this 50 mile drive, it was elbow to elbow fishermen. Every flat spot off the road, and every hayfield were occupied by fish camps. I have never seen anything like it. And the salmon runs have continued to improve each year since. Isn't the Idaho economy already benefiting from the improved fishery? You need to stop looking at the glass being half empty all the time. Get off your ass and go fishing and quit whining!

 

[BigHornRam]

Gunner,


You say: "I have a responsiblity to my children, and to future generations to make sure hunting and fishing is BETTER than it is today. That each succeeding generation can be free from the past mistakes of the previous generation's destruction of hunting and fishing opportunities."

Then why don't you lead by example? Put your money where your mouth is. Follow President Bushes lead and convert your energy consumption to more wildlife freindly alternatives.

BTW the hunting and fishing is getting better and better. Not because of your efforts, but because of the many groups that have adopted a work together approach.

 

[1_pointer]

Paul- I guess I was a bit too touchy on the wife thing, but the rich comment did rub. I'm over-it. As far as other perspectives and the big picture, that the purpose of accepting comments. Managers can't know everyone's wants or wishes, so they send them in via comments. Sometimes it can change an action, sometimes not. Additionally, I look at resource management as a three-legged stool. One must try to balance economy, ecology, and societal wants. Without a proper balance you'll have some problems. We're more similar in our views than either of us would care to admit.

Now 'Gunner is the hard one. He thinks that just hunting and fishing have to be better, but what he should really care about is land health! Otherwise I could make hunting and fishing better by turning ID into Texas II. Hunting could be better if we protected the animals from predators, cars, and cold by fencing and feeding.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Gunner,

Explain this. In Oct. 2001, I drove downstream from North Fork to the mouth of the Middle Fork. For the majority of this 50 mile drive, it was elbow to elbow fishermen. Every flat spot off the road, and every hayfield were occupied by fish camps. I have never seen anything like it. And the salmon runs have continued to improve each year since. Isn't the Idaho economy already benefiting from the improved fishery? You need to stop looking at the glass being half empty all the time. Get off your ass and go fishing and quit whining!

Paul,
And not a single one of the guys you saw fishing on the Main between North Fork and the Confluence was going to catch a Salmon in that river. Could you imagine how many people would be fishing there if there were Salmon to be caught????? Now you can see why restoring Salmon to catchable levels would be such a boon to Custer County.

Could you imagine having those crowds also on the East Fork? Or the Pashemeroi? Or the So. Fork? Or the East Fork of the South Fork? Or on Johnson Creen? Or on Big Creek? Or on Marsh Creek? Or on Bear Valley Creek? Or how about on the American? Or the So. Fork Clearwater?

Talk about having "economic development".....

 

[JoseCuervo]

Paul- I guess I was a bit too touchy on the wife thing, but the rich comment did rub. I'm over-it. As far as other perspectives and the big picture, that the purpose of accepting comments. Managers can't know everyone's wants or wishes, so they send them in via comments. Sometimes it can change an action, sometimes not. Additionally, I look at resource management as a three-legged stool. One must try to balance economy, ecology, and societal wants. Without a proper balance you'll have some problems. We're more similar in our views than either of us would care to admit.

Now 'Gunner is the hard one. He thinks that just hunting and fishing have to be better, but what he should really care about is land health! Otherwise I could make hunting and fishing better by turning ID into Texas II. Hunting could be better if we protected the animals from predators, cars, and cold by fencing and feeding.

1-Ptr,

I apologise for Paul's comments, as in the grandest example of what is wrong with this country, he blames others (Ithica and myself) for his actions.

R-I-P Personal Responsiblity (AD 2004)

And as for hunting and fishing being better, it has to be long term and sustainable. If you remove all the wolves and other predators, haven't you actually ruined hunting for Wolves and predators? If you start feeding game, don't you eventually introduce artificial populations that spread disease and start killing the animals you are trying to protect???

Sorry, but sound science will reject all your ideas long before your protection could be introduced. You can't have quality hunting and fishing without the land being improved. The hunting and fishing is the "lithmus test" that lets you know if the land is being managed correctly.

 

[BigHornRam]

"Could you imagine having those crowds also on the East Fork? Or the Pashemeroi? Or the So. Fork? Or the East Fork of the South Fork? Or on Johnson Creen? Or on Big Creek? Or on Marsh Creek? Or on Bear Valley Creek? Or how about on the American? Or the So. Fork Clearwater?"

No I couldn't. Long before this happened, some enviro would file suit to stop the human herd from distroying all the riparian areas by tromping up and down the banks of these fragile streams. Steelhead salmon are salmon in my book. You can call them salt water rainbow trout if you want.

I see you left the Lochsa off your list. Why?

Paul

 

[1_pointer]

Some feel that songbirds are the ultimate litmus test! I was sorta baiting you and went another direction...maybe that's why I suck at fishing. I was hoping the fence/feeding comment would ilicit a discussion on the definition of hunting. I'm with you though, as I don't ever see myself hunting native game behind a fence. Buffalo maybe, but I wouldn't consider that hunting, just shooting for meat.

I'll be on the Clearwater again in either Feb or March trying to catch my first steelhead. I've been at the park with the wife practicing my synchonized casting!! FISH ON!!

 

[JoseCuervo]

You are as looney and ill-informed as Dubya and his administration are. That is as bad as counting Hatchery fish as Wild fish..... |oo You just better hope you never get checked by a Game Warden. Glad to see you have no regard for Regulations and limitations on hunting and fishing.


1-Ptr,

I took the Jetboat out this afternoon, and ran up toward Bob's place. Hell's Canyon has been producing pretty good, so Dad wants to fish it for three days next weekend.

 

[1_pointer]

Have a good one and catch one for me!!! This year big game hunting and fishing didn't work out too well...maybe I need a surogate.