Dubya says drill first, hunt what's left (again)

[BuzzH]

Your college education wasnt wasted, you just must not have had a natural resource policy course.

Dont worry, shrub didnt take that course either...and wonders why his agencies are losing lawsuit after lawsuit...

 

[AKHighmark]

Ok...enough of this crap. Get off your pedestal. You can think what you want.

My 6 YO kid has been in more of the Alaska backcountry on foot than you will probably ever see. Don't think that because I am for development that I am for raping the land.

 

[AKHighmark]

And I won't post the pictures of the Thousands of $$$$ I have spread around the AK economy on my hunting and fishing trips...

WOW...Thousands of Dollars.

How about the MILLIONS the oil companies put into the economy.


You dudes just don't get it.

 

[Ithaca 37]

AK, Is the oil industry bigger than tourism, hunting and fishing in Alaska?

 

[ELKCHSR]

AKHiighmark,
This is their modus of operations, take what ever any one say's that doesn't fit inside of their little boxes and ride if for all it's worth.
Don't become discouraged because of the hypocrites on the board.
They espouse to be on a higher plane in the world order (can't get away from the junior high pecking order thing), try to make it sound like you are in lockstep with the devil, and that you are so far "Right Wing" that you are out of touch.
When in reality they are so locked into their own prejudices and hates, they can't and won't see the truth...
Buzz and gunner won't understand any of this, but what the hey, they don't have to...

Your way of thinking is way closer to the norm and theirs is becoming the dinasours of yesterday. Keep at the key board, and show them they really have no power, except that which is self proclaimed...

 

[MattK]

Elkchsr- I ditto your setiments but believe it is you who are "out of touch with reality" not gunner and buzz. The average person probably doesn't care about the environment unless the polution kills them. Doesn't make it right though. Just means our population base is more worried about the almighty dollar as opposed to how and where they live.

 

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese, can you explain how the NWR and USFWS is supposed to get around upholding an act passed by the United States citizenship?

They will get their asses sued, and they will lose, and rightfully so. These agencies and even shrub can not just break the laws passed by the people. You cant ignore existing law. Its been done in the past, but in todays world and watchdog groups around every tree, the good ol' boy network is a thing of the past. Agencies, congress, etc. are being held accountable and being forced to take mandates seriously.

People like you whine because you dont understand the laws, and how things used to be done has no bearing on today....those are the facts.

It isnt about whether I'm right or wrong...its about who knows the laws and who doesnt. Its about the courts having to decide because morons like you dont understand existing law.

 

[guppie9]

AKH...Man, I feel your pain. I have had this arguement with these guys before and there really is no changing their minds. It doesn't matter how many statistics you post or how many salient points you make, they are not going to listen.

Buzz - Question...if I could show you how oil companies have drilled in other areas of Alaska without harming the wildlife, would you consider drilling in ANWR if the same measures were put in place? If the intent of the law is to protect wildlife and we can drill AND protect wildlife, than what is the problem?

YRH - Too bad you didn't relate the REST of the story about how the guy was some drunk end-of-the-roader who had attempted to shoot his own brother that same day. He was not a hunter, he was an idiot. But keep on with all those great postings, you'll be back up to 4888 in no time.

 

[guppie9]

IT - to answer your question, if you are talking purely in monetary value to the state, than, yes, the oil industry is bigger.

 

[SageGhost]

reply..

i thought this was perfect for some posters..

 

[Oak]

Buzz...Man, I feel your pain. I have had this arguement with these guys before and there really is no changing their minds. It doesn't matter how many statistics you post or how many salient points you make, they are not going to listen.
Oak

 

[guppie9]

Gee...how original.

 

[BuzzH]

Guppie,

If you want to drill a WILDLIFE refuge, you are going to negatively impact wildlife, no way around it. Just the pads and roads will cause a loss of available habitat. It doesnt really matter whether I think its an acceptable loss, in this particular case, because direct mandate states the mission of the NWR system.

If you are hell bent on drilling the WILDLIFE refuge, then I suggest you contact your representatives and have them amend the current mandates and mission of the National Wildlife Refuge system. If you do anything less than that, expect expensive and drawn out legal battles, because thats what you're going to get, and you will lose.

For what its worth, the 1002 report clearly states that there will be major differences in how the oil is being drilled nearby and how the oil would be drilled in ANWR...mostly, there isnt enough water available for ice roads, so gravel roads will be used almost exclusively. That will take away habitat and negatively impact wildlife in a place set aside exclusively for wildlife. Thats totally unacceptable, ethically, morally, and legally. WTF good is the NWR system if they cant even do what they were created to do...that is provide a place for WILDLIFE.

I personally dont think its a good idea to drill for a 9 month domestic supply of oil (maximum amount recoverable) at the expense of existing law, wildlife, and all the while ignoring the intent of the National Wildlife Refuge system...whether or not it will harm wildlife is just a very small part of the over-all picture.

I dont understand why every time a compromise happens its wildlife, wildlife laws, and wildlife habitat that is always the sacrificial lamb.

 

[YourRoyalHighness]

WOW...Thousands of Dollars.

How about the MILLIONS the oil companies put into the economy.


You dudes just don't get it.

So AK Hi Mom, the whole purpose of drilling ANWR is for the MILLIONS that will get pumped into the AK economy??? I thought Dubya was telling us it is to improve national security.

But you, will advocate that we should drill a Wildlife Refuge just to provide AK jobs???

 

[YourRoyalHighness]

AKH...Man, I feel your pain. I have had this arguement with these guys before and there really is no changing their minds. It doesn't matter how many statistics you post or how many salient points you make, they are not going to listen.

Buzz - Question...if I could show you how oil companies have drilled in other areas of Alaska without harming the wildlife, would you consider drilling in ANWR if the same measures were put in place? If the intent of the law is to protect wildlife and we can drill AND protect wildlife, than what is the problem?

YRH - Too bad you didn't relate the REST of the story about how the guy was some drunk end-of-the-roader who had attempted to shoot his own brother that same day. He was not a hunter, he was an idiot. But keep on with all those great postings, you'll be back up to 4888 in no time.

Gusieppe,
I did ask if you could show where drilling HELPED wildlife. Straight up question, does it???

As for the local AK hunter who thought pipelines were for hunting, I posted all the story I knew. If you remember, Sept 11, 2001 happened, and the news kind of got filled up with other details than AK hunters shooting at Moose and Caribou in front of a pipeline...

 

[guppie9]

OK..here we go...

First of all, I want to correct a very common misconception. The area where the oil companies want to drill is inside the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. HOWEVER, 8% of ANWR IS NOT in protected status and that is the area that the companies want to drill. I know that it is strange that an area of land inside a refuge is not protected, but it is not. That area of land, also known as the 1002 area, has neither refuge nor wilderness status. It was specifically set aside for investigation of its oil and gas potential in 1980 when ANWR was created. Therefore, there is no need for me to contact my legislators to have them amend anything...because the remaining 92%, or 17.5 million acres, has been given wilderness or refuge status and is already permanently protected against development.

Next point...I would like to address the myth that there is only a 6-9 month supply of oil available. This is a very misleading statistic. If we pumped all the oil out of ANWR and only used that oil, not any oil from anywhere else, including the rest of Alaska, than, yes, it would only last 6-9 months. But that isn't how it works. We wouldn't shut down all the other oil fields and use only that oil. The truth is, it is estimated that there are between 6 and 16 billion barrels of technically recoverable oil in the study area. Averaging those numbers, we come up with about 11 billion barrels. Technically recoverable oil is the amount of oil that actually comes out of the ground, since you can’t get it all. The USGS used a very conservative 37% recovery factor in their ANWR assessment. At Prudhoe Bay the recovery factor is over 60%. If the recovery factor in ANWR fields can match Prudhoe Bay then the technically recoverable average increases to about 18 billion barrels. Currently, the Transalaska Pipeline is flowing at less than half of its 2.2 million barrel capacity. If ANWR oil was pumped at 1 million barrels per day, the ANWR oil alone would last for over 49 years.

My last point concerns the effect on wildlife. In 1965, when development of Prudhoe Bay began, the Central Arctic Caribou Herd, which migrates through Prudhoe Bay, was estimated to be at around 3,000 animals. As of 2002, the herd is now estimated to be at 32,000 animals. The caribou continue to calve in and around the oil fields. It has been documented that the Central Arctic Herd has a higher cow/calf ratio than other nearby herds. Now, I am not going to pretend that the oil fields have caused the increase in numbers. However, I find it very difficult for anyone to argue that it has negatively impacted them. To prove that it helps them, I think, would be an impossible task.

Thank you.

 

[BuzzH]

Guppie,

Like I said in an earlier post, there is more wildlife than caribou, and you asked if it would negatively impact wildlife, not caribou.

There is no debate that taking available habitat away from wildlife causes a negative impact.

Thank you.

 

[AKHighmark]

Yep....we will most certainly impact the Mule Deer population in ANWR.

 

[AKHighmark]

Guppie...

We should have a beer sometime when I am in Fairbanks.

 

[YourRoyalHighness]

Guiseppe,

Regarding your second point, that is a Red Herring. The truth is, the supply is 6 months of oil for this country if ANWR is drilled. You can play all the games with the numbers, but 6 billion or 22 billion is a finite number. When you divided it by a time, you get a finite amount of oil. To take your argument to the extreme, if you DON'T drill ANWR, you would have an "INFINITE" supply of Oil, as it would last for ever.

So you can either call it 6 months of oil or an Infinite supply of oil. Which is more accurate???

As for your third point, what was the population of the Mulchatna herd at those two points in time??? Was there an increase in herd size in the Mulchatna?? What about Forty Mile or Porcupine?