DT Jr. on Meateater

[Southern Elk]

I wish Steve would have asked him about Pendley.

 

[BWALKER77]

Honestly, I think meddling is the right thing to do on this issue. We act like these resources (salmon, rivers, etc) just go on and on and we'll get it right eventually. Nope. They're almost gone and we should thank our lucky stars that this one still exists. It's a world treasure. If I were president, I'd meddle so much in that one that you wouldn't even be able to think about mines near Bristol Bay headwaters. It's just a bad idea. Period. I'm pretty open-minded about seeing the shades of grey out there, too. No grey for me on Pebble.

So meddling by people unqualified to make a sound judgement is OK as long as you agree with the outcome? This is dangerous on several levels.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

So meddling by people unqualified to make a sound judgement is OK as long as you agree with the outcome? This is dangerous on several levels.

We live in a democracy, decisions about landscapes should definitely be driven by public input, and everyone has a right to express their opinion.

For instance I think it's completely reasonable and correct, for the citizens of Colorado to vote on wolf reintroduction. The citizens should decide if they want that animal on the landscape.
After reintroduction, and the actual implementation of the effort should be left to the CPW. Voting on specific numbers of wolves, the exact way in which it's done, etc is ballot box biology which I don't care for.

If society decides pebble mine is should be built, then it should be left to regulatory agencies, IMHO we are still very much in the is this what we want to do phase.

 

[BWALKER77]

We live in a democracy, decisions about landscapes should definitely be driven by public input, and everyone has a right to express their opinion.

For instance I think it's completely reasonable and correct, for the citizens of Colorado to vote on wolf reintroduction. The citizens should decide if they want that animal on the landscape.
After reintroduction, and the actual implementation of the effort should be left to the CPW. Voting on specific numbers of wolves, the exact way in which it's done, etc is ballot box biology which I don't care for.

If society decides pebble mine is should be built, then it should be left to regulatory agencies, IMHO we are still very much in the is this what we want to do phase.

Actually we dont live in a democracy, but rather a representative republic. Using democracy to make decisions on wildlife management is foolhardy at best.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Actually we dont live in a democracy, but rather a representative republic. Using democracy to make decisions on wildlife management is foolhardy at best.

Don't make me give you the eye roll gif

I agree decisions on wildlife management is not the place for democracy, democracy is also foolhardy when writing the building codes for a nuclear power plant.

BUT democracy is the place to decide, if we should choose to coexist with big predators, build mines, or use nuclear power to generate our energy.

For me, it's kinda a micromanaging thing. Let society set the objectives and experts implement them in the best manner possible.

 

[BuzzH]

Actually we dont live in a democracy, but rather a representative republic. Using democracy to make decisions on wildlife management is foolhardy at best.

Any more foolhardy than leaving it up to 535 people who can be influenced by money, greed, corruption, etc.?

 

[88man]

I guess my point is that you will never see a bill that says "Give all Federal Land to the State" pass through Congress because the vast majority of Americans are against the idea. It doesn't mean the GOP will remove it from its platform or stop trying to accomplish it. It will happen incrementally. The first step is to change the structure of the arrangement so it will provide incentive for the change. I fear that one day Outdoors people wake up and say "What the hell just happened"? when they realize they didn't get a say in the future of public lands, how they are used, and the price to use them.

Is it really on the platform of the GOP?????? I don't think so. A group of GOP I'll give you that. We might be surprised the number of dems that would support it also.

 

[88man]

I guess we wouldn’t have to worry about “best ultra light tent” questions anymore.

Yeah though as we've noted, currently it's way cheaper to destroy public lands (OG, mines,whatever).

WIND!

 

[88man]

You mean you don't want to camp under a solar panel? The solar industry is realizing they have a lot of available space on the tops of buildings. Its just a matter of incentives. Hopefully we all figure it out soon or Miami is going to be a swamp.

Maybe put those wind turbines on top of buildings also.

 

[Trial153]

Is it really on the platform of the GOP?????? I don't think so. A group of GOP I'll give you that. We might be surprised the number of dems that would support it also.

Its in the party platform. Sugar coat it all you want, but its there.

 

[SAJ-99]

Is it really on the platform of the GOP?????? I don't think so. A group of GOP I'll give you that. We might be surprised the number of dems that would support it also.

Page 21 , Environmental Progress section of the 2016 platform (which is carrying forward to 2020). I guess we "might" be surprised by the number of democrats that feel the same, but I doubt it.
Congress shall immediately pass universal legislation providing for a timely and orderly mechanism requiring the federal government to convey certain federally controlled public lands to states. We call upon all national and state leaders and representatives to exert their utmost power and influence to urge the transfer of those lands, identified in the review process, to all willing states for the benefit of the states and the nation as a whole.

Don't pay much attention to the word "certain". It is basically everything except National Parks and land owned by the Military. I attach the link below because I really thing people should know what they are voting for. Knowledge is power.

https://prod-static-ngop-pbl.s3.amazonaws.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf

 

[88man]

Its in the party platform. Sugar coat it all you want, but its there.

The Republican Party Platform, 2020

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics

ballotpedia.org

 

[88man]

Page 21 , Environmental Progress section of the 2016 platform (which is carrying forward to 2020). I guess we "might" be surprised by the number of democrats that feel the same, but I doubt it.
Congress shall immediately pass universal legislation providing for a timely and orderly mechanism requiring the federal government to convey certain federally controlled public lands to states. We call upon all national and state leaders and representatives to exert their utmost power and influence to urge the transfer of those lands, identified in the review process, to all willing states for the benefit of the states and the nation as a whole.

Don't pay much attention to the word "certain". It is basically everything except National Parks and land owned by the Military. I attach the link below because I really thing people should know what they are voting for. Knowledge is power.

https://prod-static-ngop-pbl.s3.amazonaws.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf

Thanks you are correct page 21

 

[mottlet]

So meddling by people unqualified to make a sound judgement is OK as long as you agree with the outcome? This is dangerous on several levels.

What science in the Bristol Bay watershed assessment do you disagree with that'd lead you to believe that Pebble doesn't deserve a 404(c) veto?

The previous administration's proposed determination was overruled in court. So now the current iteration of the Army Corps is laying waste to the "process" that Pebble backers insisted be followed to a T when there was a different inhabitant at 1600 Pennsylvania. Regardless, if Wheeler and the EPA step in, as Don Jr, Rinella, and countless others that have been advocating for much longer are hoping, and issue a veto, is that judgement sound enough? If so, why? Because the Corps rammed a politically-infested DEIS through a NEPA process with breathtaking speed, leaving science unaccounted for and little time for public comment? THAT'S the process that we're supposed to stand up for with the world's largest sockeye run on the line?

 

[BWALKER77]

What science in the Bristol Bay watershed assessment do you disagree with that'd lead you to believe that Pebble doesn't deserve a 404(c) veto?

The previous administration's proposed determination was overruled in court. So now the current iteration of the Army Corps is laying waste to the "process" that Pebble backers insisted be followed to a T when there was a different inhabitant at 1600 Pennsylvania. Regardless, if Wheeler and the EPA step in, as Don Jr, Rinella, and countless others that have been advocating for much longer are hoping, and issue a veto, is that judgement sound enough? If so, why? Because the Corps rammed a politically-infested DEIS through a NEPA process with breathtaking speed, leaving science unaccounted for and little time for public comment? THAT'S the process that we're supposed to stand up for with the world's largest sockeye run on the line?

The 404(c) veto was based scenarios completely different from the application for starters.

 

[BWALKER77]

Any more foolhardy than leaving it up to 535 people who can be influenced by money, greed, corruption, etc.?

Yes, much more so in fact and there is plenty of examples to prove it. Dove season being canceled by ballot initiative in MI is one example.

 

[BuzzH]

Yes, much more so in fact and there is plenty of examples to prove it. Dove season being canceled by ballot initiative in MI is one example.

Opinions vary...

 

[BWALKER77]

Opinions vary...

To be clear I don't have a lot of faith in politicians, but have even less faith in the general public.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Yes, much more so in fact and there is plenty of examples to prove it. Dove season being canceled by ballot initiative in MI is one example.

Though you can get back dove season back at any time if folks want it, one vote and you're back hunting...not quite the same with the Berkeley pit.

 

[Sytes]

Thanks you are correct page 21

It would be pretty amazing if Public Lands was the only issue Americans faced during elections...