DS's Ram.....

[Nut]

While I was reading this thread and the others my 12 year old was looking at the pics. Then about 20 minutes later he came to me and showed me a drawing he did just from memory. Lord knows I dont have any laying around.

I hope this shows up

 

[Nut]

He is known as TurkeyEye here

 

[Deerslayer]

Your son has talent, Nut!..and nice friggin ram!

Non-typical.....I have no problem with you doubting my ram...you did it in what I thought was the proper fashion...without calling me a poacher and a liar.

Here is another shot of the 4 some rolls we were able to document.....my brother was right on it when he said, "Batten always says to take plenty of photos as eveidence!"

Anyway, here is a new pic I just scanned that is about as perfect of a circle and chance to judge a sheep from a photo as you could ever get.....

Please note that the angle is almost straight away, evidenced by the fact you can see the off-side horn dead even with the front horn.

DS

 

[Deerslayer]

Now take that last photo...go back to the 24 hour regs and match it to the diagram it most closely resembles of the 3 or 4 posted in the regs, then look at the horn lengths for that pic..matches the numbers I quoted almost to a "T"....
DS

 

[Deerslayer]

Yet another look.....

DS

 

[Nontypical]

this last photo is close, but I still see an ellipse, and I still don't get it using the Russ criteria

using the Russ criteria, it looks like the B angle is pretty steep back

this could be camera angle, or maybe because he's argali-type

but, like the other photo, if I look at my computer screen edge on (this time from above) it becomes a circle and he looks like he makes it using the ADFG criteria (the very first photo on the ADFG pg at 24hr)

don't get me wrong, it looks to me like he makes it using the ADFG criteria in both pics you've got here

I'm just struck with how tricky this judging business is and am having fun trying to learn it. Beats staring at the wall waiting for elk season.

I don't think I've ever looked at my computer screen edge on for any reason before...

Congrats again, and Cheers,

Nt

 

[Erik in AK]

Angles schmangles...from this photo, which is a little clearer than the others, I can make out 8 maybe 9 growth rings which makes the ram 9 or 10. I could give a better estimate if I examined them personally. Horn length becomes a non-issue once there are at least 8 rings.

Another fairly accurate way of judging full curl is a solid head on view. If the tips appear level with, or protruding above the bases they usually are. I wouldn't commit to a kill ram on this view alone but its a solid indicator of maturity, even at great distance.

This debate needs to die

Somebody kill something else so we can move on...where's Greenhorn?

 

[Nontypical]

you're too dang quick posting another photo, I was referring to the one before that...

while you're at it, put some of those scenery pics back up, that's a big part of what sheep hunting is all about to me

cheers

 

[Deerslayer]

Hahahahah.."E" over on the "Sheep Hunt Docs" thread just said after seeing the photos..this ram is a 5 year old at best, now that is funny.

Another thing on the growth rings Eric......the lamb tip is the first..so the first ring you see is actually the second year....
DS

 

[Nontypical]

where's Greenhorn?... I just hope he's not out looking for another elk fetus to photograph...

but if that is his secret to success... and if they are "finger licking good" like he claimed...

 

[Erik in AK]

Nontypical I don't mean to beat this here dead horse any further but the ellipical profile of this rams horns has no bearing on his being full curl. The tip passes the base and the pic angle is forward of dead-on profile which has the effect of reducing the appearance of full curl. So, if the photo was an exact profile he'd be more full curl.

Also this is not an Argali type ram in terms of horn configuration. He's a very typical looking Wrangel's ram, in that he has wide, flaring divergent horns. I'm not trying to nitpick or start another debate but this ram is not an Argali

Argali's, by horn configuration not species, first angle in towards the rams cheeks at the bottom of the arc (converge) then flare away from the head out to the tips (diverge).

Tony Russ' book has good examples of the different types.

 

[Nontypical]

Erik,

i was basing the elliptical issue on the ADFG guide posted at 24 hr, take a look

they seem to think it has lots of bearing

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB5&Number=91458&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=

i tried tracing the images using a drawing prog, they came out slightly elliptical

that's when i started looking at my screen from the edge, making the ellipses into circles by viewing from an angle

i called him argali type based upon my memory of the original pic DS posted of DS holding the ram, which was head on

i've heard dalls that have flaring horns, as opposed to the narrower, deeper curl variation, referred to as such, perhaps i'm missing a nuance in the distinction of the types... i'm not clear yet from your descrip above... i've got Russ's first book, will look in it later, or if you know of other pics, point me to them

i'm not worried about flogging this, just having fun learning about sheep

cheers,

Nt

 

[dempsey]

I heard there were more pics, so I hunted down the site for a look. I still don't understand how anyone would buy into the conspiracy theory. I'm fairly new to the campfire and not familiar with DS or Sitka. Why someone would believe and work to prove it still makes no sense.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

For those who have been following this, Sitka Deer has posted "An Apology" on the 24-hour forum. I think he has done the honorable thing, and he has gone up some in my book for doing so. (For whatever that is worth.)

 

[Oak]

Those photos confirm what I already knew...it's a great ram!

Oak

 

[Moosie]

CALI had it right... a sorry was said, since this topic is more about MArks RAM.... LEt's keep it on that subject and I won't lock it like I did the others..... Let's let the Slamming of names die, I teased shitka myself, but now let's move on.......

KEEP the posting about DS's RAM, and if names need to be thrown, throw them at me, I'm guessing I deserve a few!!

NIGHT folks.... and thanx

 

[danr55]

Nontypical, I don't believe that you can get a circle out of those horns any way you look at them. They are conical by definition, in that they have traverse in two axis, circumferentially and horizontally. So without considering the spacial effect, you can not get a circle.

I think that may be why they offer so many different methods of measurement.

All in all, I think I should take the ram for safe keeping right above my fireplace until DS gets a chance to find a bigger one. Then we can trade. It's a beautiful trophy and a great head. Wish it were mine.



<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 09-25-2002 06:31: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>great head. Wish it were mine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting...
HEHEHE Dan said he wishes for some great head!!!!

 

[Nontypical]

danr55,

I agree there's a lot of complexity here and it requires more research

but I think the best way to solve this geometry problem is by having DS let the ram rotate back and forth between your and my fireplaces

we can give DS periodic updates on the solution of the horn-in-a-circle problem while we're waiting to hunt dalls

 

[Deerslayer]

Hmmmmmm....why am I getting this funny feeling I am once again getting "greased up for a phuckin'" concerning my ram?
DS