Draw results are up

SCliving Outdoors said:
Looks like Im going elk hunting in Alaska.
Click to expand...
Bambistew said:
You guys know that CO has tons of black bear tags, they cost next to nothing and are easy to draw... why spend the money on AK misery? You'll probably shoot about the same size bear. :whistle:

I may have to take an early retirement this year... The wife drew a sheep tag and an elk tag. Also have to fit in another sheep hunt and a caribou hunt somehow. Going to be a busy year
Click to expand...
three HT with elk tags this fall in AK? Dang because I drew one too!
 
Since I can't start a new thread just yet, I'll leave my idea here.

Currently, AK’s draw system is a random non-accumulating bonus point system. Applicants can put in up to a maximum of six chances (bonus points) per species. All six chances can be placed on a single hunt number (DI403x6) or split between multiple hunt numbers (up to six). Each chance cost either $5 or $10 depending on the species. $10 for bison and muskox and $5 for everything else. Since each chance cost money, that’s why it can be seen as a “bonus point”. Pay more money for more chances to win. These chances, or points, do not accumulate from year to year. Everyone starts with a clean slate each year and their luck is only increased by the number of chances they wish to pay for. Stupid simple system. Doesn’t get any more fair then random dumb luck! Now, I’m not anti non-resident by any means but, as a lifelong Alaskan, I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me when Jimmy from Texas moves to AK and then a year later draws a tag that I’ve been trying to draw for a decade or more. I’m aware that you don’t need a draw tag to hunt, and the vast majority of my harvest’s are not from draw tags, but they sure can be nice sometimes!

What if the chances, or points, didn’t reset each year? If an applicant puts in for six chances on a hunt and doesn’t draw, those six points carry over to the next year. The applicant puts in the following year with their bank of six points and adds in another six for a total of twelve chances at a hunt number. Assuming they don’t draw that year then they now have twelve points in their bank. This system repeats until the applicant draws a tag and then their points bank for that species starts over at zero again. The points would be species specific and the draw system would still be random. So, people who don’t want to drop the money on max chances each year still have a chance to draw a tag and their point bank still accumulates, so each year their chances get a little better also. Applicants would also have to apply each year to keep their point bank going. If someone misses a year, then their point bank goes back to zero. None of that just buying a point nonsense and not actually applying. Applicants could also split their points for a species on different hunt numbers. This system would also allow young hunters to enter the pool with a chance of drawing a tag each year while accumulating bonus points.

It seems that people are split on whether to keep the system the way it is or to implement some type of point system. But the people who want a point system never say what kind of system they want, just that we need a “Point System”. I DO NOT want a preference point system, nor should anyone. To me, this type of system is the ultimate in fairness. Everyone who puts in has a chance to draw a tag but the people who stick it out year after year get rewarded with a little bump in their luck each year. This system also does not hinder people who financially can’t put in for max chances each year and spend hundreds of dollars. This system would allow them to focus their efforts and dollars on a specific hunt number or species and each year increase their chances a bit. This system also introduces a chance to use some strategy when trying to draw a tag.



Thoughts?

Worth a proposal to the Board of Game?
 
Jesse_AK said:
Since I can't start a new thread just yet, I'll leave my idea here.

Currently, AK’s draw system is a random non-accumulating bonus point system. Applicants can put in up to a maximum of six chances (bonus points) per species. All six chances can be placed on a single hunt number (DI403x6) or split between multiple hunt numbers (up to six). Each chance cost either $5 or $10 depending on the species. $10 for bison and muskox and $5 for everything else. Since each chance cost money, that’s why it can be seen as a “bonus point”. Pay more money for more chances to win. These chances, or points, do not accumulate from year to year. Everyone starts with a clean slate each year and their luck is only increased by the number of chances they wish to pay for. Stupid simple system. Doesn’t get any more fair then random dumb luck! Now, I’m not anti non-resident by any means but, as a lifelong Alaskan, I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me when Jimmy from Texas moves to AK and then a year later draws a tag that I’ve been trying to draw for a decade or more. I’m aware that you don’t need a draw tag to hunt, and the vast majority of my harvest’s are not from draw tags, but they sure can be nice sometimes!

What if the chances, or points, didn’t reset each year? If an applicant puts in for six chances on a hunt and doesn’t draw, those six points carry over to the next year. The applicant puts in the following year with their bank of six points and adds in another six for a total of twelve chances at a hunt number. Assuming they don’t draw that year then they now have twelve points in their bank. This system repeats until the applicant draws a tag and then their points bank for that species starts over at zero again. The points would be species specific and the draw system would still be random. So, people who don’t want to drop the money on max chances each year still have a chance to draw a tag and their point bank still accumulates, so each year their chances get a little better also. Applicants would also have to apply each year to keep their point bank going. If someone misses a year, then their point bank goes back to zero. None of that just buying a point nonsense and not actually applying. Applicants could also split their points for a species on different hunt numbers. This system would also allow young hunters to enter the pool with a chance of drawing a tag each year while accumulating bonus points.

It seems that people are split on whether to keep the system the way it is or to implement some type of point system. But the people who want a point system never say what kind of system they want, just that we need a “Point System”. I DO NOT want a preference point system, nor should anyone. To me, this type of system is the ultimate in fairness. Everyone who puts in has a chance to draw a tag but the people who stick it out year after year get rewarded with a little bump in their luck each year. This system also does not hinder people who financially can’t put in for max chances each year and spend hundreds of dollars. This system would allow them to focus their efforts and dollars on a specific hunt number or species and each year increase their chances a bit. This system also introduces a chance to use some strategy when trying to draw a tag.



Thoughts?

Worth a proposal to the Board of Game?
Click to expand...

Just my opinion, but I say leave it the same.
 
Jesse_AK said:
Since I can't start a new thread just yet, I'll leave my idea here.

Currently, AK’s draw system is a random non-accumulating bonus point system. Applicants can put in up to a maximum of six chances (bonus points) per species. All six chances can be placed on a single hunt number (DI403x6) or split between multiple hunt numbers (up to six). Each chance cost either $5 or $10 depending on the species. $10 for bison and muskox and $5 for everything else. Since each chance cost money, that’s why it can be seen as a “bonus point”. Pay more money for more chances to win. These chances, or points, do not accumulate from year to year. Everyone starts with a clean slate each year and their luck is only increased by the number of chances they wish to pay for. Stupid simple system. Doesn’t get any more fair then random dumb luck! Now, I’m not anti non-resident by any means but, as a lifelong Alaskan, I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me when Jimmy from Texas moves to AK and then a year later draws a tag that I’ve been trying to draw for a decade or more. I’m aware that you don’t need a draw tag to hunt, and the vast majority of my harvest’s are not from draw tags, but they sure can be nice sometimes!

What if the chances, or points, didn’t reset each year? If an applicant puts in for six chances on a hunt and doesn’t draw, those six points carry over to the next year. The applicant puts in the following year with their bank of six points and adds in another six for a total of twelve chances at a hunt number. Assuming they don’t draw that year then they now have twelve points in their bank. This system repeats until the applicant draws a tag and then their points bank for that species starts over at zero again. The points would be species specific and the draw system would still be random. So, people who don’t want to drop the money on max chances each year still have a chance to draw a tag and their point bank still accumulates, so each year their chances get a little better also. Applicants would also have to apply each year to keep their point bank going. If someone misses a year, then their point bank goes back to zero. None of that just buying a point nonsense and not actually applying. Applicants could also split their points for a species on different hunt numbers. This system would also allow young hunters to enter the pool with a chance of drawing a tag each year while accumulating bonus points.

It seems that people are split on whether to keep the system the way it is or to implement some type of point system. But the people who want a point system never say what kind of system they want, just that we need a “Point System”. I DO NOT want a preference point system, nor should anyone. To me, this type of system is the ultimate in fairness. Everyone who puts in has a chance to draw a tag but the people who stick it out year after year get rewarded with a little bump in their luck each year. This system also does not hinder people who financially can’t put in for max chances each year and spend hundreds of dollars. This system would allow them to focus their efforts and dollars on a specific hunt number or species and each year increase their chances a bit. This system also introduces a chance to use some strategy when trying to draw a tag.



Thoughts?

Worth a proposal to the Board of Game?
Click to expand...
I fail to see how this idea is not a bonus points system. You increase your chances each time you fail to apply (and can get 6 bonus points a year) and then also gain an advantage by paying more to use those points you "earned." Its even worse than bonus points, its bonus points set up for those with more money.

It would also cost money to manage and track the "points." ADFG is mandated to maintain a drawing system that is financially self sufficient. I would imagine such a system would cost easily 2x as much as the current system, so your draw chances just went to $10+ each. Win win for the guys with money who really "deserve" those tags because they lived here longer, but more like just started applying the first year the game started.

Lastly, something to really think about. In terms of sheep tags anyway, about 85-90% of the people who draw sheep tags in Alaska have never hunted sheep before. So who is really gaining an advantage? Maybe no one.

I'm against this idea.
 
Bambistew said:
I fail to see how this idea is not a bonus points system. You increase your chances each time you fail to apply (and can get 6 bonus points a year) and then also gain an advantage by paying more to use those points you "earned." Its even worse than bonus points, its bonus points set up for those with more money.

It would also cost money to manage and track the "points." ADFG is mandated to maintain a drawing system that is financially self sufficient. I would imagine such a system would cost easily 2x as much as the current system, so your draw chances just went to $10+ each. Win win for the guys with money who really "deserve" those tags because they lived here longer, but more like just started applying the first year the game started.

Lastly, something to really think about. In terms of sheep tags anyway, about 85-90% of the people who draw sheep tags in Alaska have never hunted sheep before. So who is really gaining an advantage? Maybe no one.

I'm against this idea.
Click to expand...
It is a bonus point system...

But our current system also is in a way, applicants just don't get to accumulate points from year to year. Under the current system each chance you pay for (up to 6) is like a "Bonus Point" and each year your chances get reset. Our current system already favors people with more money to burn as each choice cost $5-$10 and the more you pay for the better your chances get, Slightly. I think it was this last year or the year before maybe, a proposal was put into the BOG to increase the draw chances to 10 or 12. The BOG shot it down because it catered to people with more money to burn even more than the current system.

Most point systems in the lower 48 allow people to sit on their points though without actually applying each year. This new system would not allow that, you have to essentially burn your points each year, so a lot of people won't even get to accumulate many points because they will draw a tag, which is a good thing!

This new idea keeps everything about the current random system the same, except your chances from each year get banked for you to apply the next year. Applicants won't have to apply for the max 6 chances for all species each year, most don't under the current system anyway, but they would have to apply at least once for each species if they wanted to bank any points for the next year.

When looking at draw results for the current system, very few people put in for every big game species available. Some go all in on one hunt while some go the shotgun approach and scatter their six chances on different hunts. This new system would just allow people who apply diligently each year to increase their chances a bit. Still a random system though so anyone could win regardless of how many points they have or years they have been applying.

If Fish and Game had a reliable account system set up then keeping track of the rollover points would not be difficult or costly. I think they're getting close with the introduction of the new app.

For 2022 DS203 had 5,103 applications submitted (Not individual applicants). Knowing that not all applicants submit all 6 chances to one hunt, under the new system that 5,103 would not become 10,206... the number of applications would go up for sure but who knows by how much.

Also, anytime someone has multiple chances entered for a hunt or a species, when they win a permit, all of their other chances/entries become void thus increasing chances for others. Since people can't sit on their points without risking them under this new system, there shouldn't be a decades worth of points built up to then dump into the system all in one year. People build points for a few years, then draw a tag and go back to 0. Some of those people with crazy luck won't ever build any points for some species because they draw tags regularly.
 
Jesse_AK said:
It is a bonus point system...

But our current system also is in a way, applicants just don't get to accumulate points from year to year. Under the current system each chance you pay for (up to 6) is like a "Bonus Point" and each year your chances get reset. Our current system already favors people with more money to burn as each choice cost $5-$10 and the more you pay for the better your chances get, Slightly. I think it was this last year or the year before maybe, a proposal was put into the BOG to increase the draw chances to 10 or 12. The BOG shot it down because it catered to people with more money to burn even more than the current system.

Most point systems in the lower 48 allow people to sit on their points though without actually applying each year. This new system would not allow that, you have to essentially burn your points each year, so a lot of people won't even get to accumulate many points because they will draw a tag, which is a good thing!

This new idea keeps everything about the current random system the same, except your chances from each year get banked for you to apply the next year. Applicants won't have to apply for the max 6 chances for all species each year, most don't under the current system anyway, but they would have to apply at least once for each species if they wanted to bank any points for the next year.

When looking at draw results for the current system, very few people put in for every big game species available. Some go all in on one hunt while some go the shotgun approach and scatter their six chances on different hunts. This new system would just allow people who apply diligently each year to increase their chances a bit. Still a random system though so anyone could win regardless of how many points they have or years they have been applying.

If Fish and Game had a reliable account system set up then keeping track of the rollover points would not be difficult or costly. I think they're getting close with the introduction of the new app.

For 2022 DS203 had 5,103 applications submitted (Not individual applicants). Knowing that not all applicants submit all 6 chances to one hunt, under the new system that 5,103 would not become 10,206... the number of applications would go up for sure but who knows by how much.

Also, anytime someone has multiple chances entered for a hunt or a species, when they win a permit, all of their other chances/entries become void thus increasing chances for others. Since people can't sit on their points without risking them under this new system, there shouldn't be a decades worth of points built up to then dump into the system all in one year. People build points for a few years, then draw a tag and go back to 0. Some of those people with crazy luck won't ever build any points for some species because they draw tags regularly.
Click to expand...
100% against building any sort of preference or points from year to year. I don't like the idea of punishing kids who have no say in this, or people who move here and will never catch up. I'm against any form of point systems or any other form of tag welfare. I see no reason to change the system we have now.

Its fair for everyone and that's why guys don't like it.

I see zero reason to cater to hunters who can't draw a tag by giving them more preference in drawing, none of us are deserving of a tag just because we apply for it, IMO. What makes a guy special for being a loser? I mean really what do they have invested other than a little money ($5-30), and a rejection letter? I love the "I live here and pay taxes" excuse though.

I sure don't see many hunters involved with BOG, RAC or any other wildlife related functions, but they're all deserving of a tag when the draw comes out 'because they applied for x years and didn't get one, again. I love the week after the draw and all the crocodile tears from guys complaining about putting in for a bison/sheep/Kodiak tag for 20 years and not drawing, a tag with 1% odds. Give em some preference, maybe they'll feel better and have a 1.5% chance of drawing. My wife and I have drawn 12 tags in 15 years, maybe more, those were just the ones I can think of.

The animals are held in trust for everyone, not just hunters. And those hunters who live here longer or put in longer are no more or less deserving to shoot one of them. YMMV

Your Tok analogy is a perfect one. 5000 people apply for 10 tags, the next year there is still 5000 people, but now 7500 applications, the next year 5000 people and 10000 applications, and so on. Your odds remain about the same as today even with max "points," because the pool is further diluted. What it does is totally screws the people who are just starting out, kids especially, and their odds are lower than general lottery we have now.

Your proposal will get shot down guaranteed.
 
Moving to a point system is the absolute wrong direction. Your odds won't go up for those high demand tags because of dilution, but it will cost more money in the long run (for each individual hunter), increase entitlement, decrease satisfaction, and will royally screw over anyone not yet born.

Point systems are bad for hunters.

If anything, I'd say drop the "chances" to one per species to really level the playing field for the less rich.
 
Jesse_AK said:
Since I can't start a new thread just yet, I'll leave my idea here.

Currently, AK’s draw system is a random non-accumulating bonus point system. Applicants can put in up to a maximum of six chances (bonus points) per species. All six chances can be placed on a single hunt number (DI403x6) or split between multiple hunt numbers (up to six). Each chance cost either $5 or $10 depending on the species. $10 for bison and muskox and $5 for everything else. Since each chance cost money, that’s why it can be seen as a “bonus point”. Pay more money for more chances to win. These chances, or points, do not accumulate from year to year. Everyone starts with a clean slate each year and their luck is only increased by the number of chances they wish to pay for. Stupid simple system. Doesn’t get any more fair then random dumb luck! Now, I’m not anti non-resident by any means but, as a lifelong Alaskan, I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me when Jimmy from Texas moves to AK and then a year later draws a tag that I’ve been trying to draw for a decade or more. I’m aware that you don’t need a draw tag to hunt, and the vast majority of my harvest’s are not from draw tags, but they sure can be nice sometimes!

What if the chances, or points, didn’t reset each year? If an applicant puts in for six chances on a hunt and doesn’t draw, those six points carry over to the next year. The applicant puts in the following year with their bank of six points and adds in another six for a total of twelve chances at a hunt number. Assuming they don’t draw that year then they now have twelve points in their bank. This system repeats until the applicant draws a tag and then their points bank for that species starts over at zero again. The points would be species specific and the draw system would still be random. So, people who don’t want to drop the money on max chances each year still have a chance to draw a tag and their point bank still accumulates, so each year their chances get a little better also. Applicants would also have to apply each year to keep their point bank going. If someone misses a year, then their point bank goes back to zero. None of that just buying a point nonsense and not actually applying. Applicants could also split their points for a species on different hunt numbers. This system would also allow young hunters to enter the pool with a chance of drawing a tag each year while accumulating bonus points.

It seems that people are split on whether to keep the system the way it is or to implement some type of point system. But the people who want a point system never say what kind of system they want, just that we need a “Point System”. I DO NOT want a preference point system, nor should anyone. To me, this type of system is the ultimate in fairness. Everyone who puts in has a chance to draw a tag but the people who stick it out year after year get rewarded with a little bump in their luck each year. This system also does not hinder people who financially can’t put in for max chances each year and spend hundreds of dollars. This system would allow them to focus their efforts and dollars on a specific hunt number or species and each year increase their chances a bit. This system also introduces a chance to use some strategy when trying to draw a tag.



Thoughts?

Worth a proposal to the Board of Game?
Click to expand...
Please no.

AK, NM, ID have the best draw systems in the west by a long shot. If you want a change suggest something like Idaho where you'd have to pick one of moose, sheep, goat, bison, brown bear. That would drastically improve draw odds and make people pick what they wanted most, but please please please "just say no" to the points system.
 
Bluffgruff said:
If anything, I'd say drop the "chances" to one per species to really level the playing field for the less rich.
Click to expand...
It used to be one chance, and you could apply for 3 choices. They they changed it so you could apply 3x for the same tag and then changed it to 6 a year or two later. We also used to get our results in the Sunday newspaper!

The one change I would be ok with is, if you draw a permit, you sit out of the draw for that species the next year. Currently you sit out for the tag you drew. There are OTC (harvest tickets or registration) opportunities for everything in AK except bison. Most people don't know that.
 
Jesse_AK said:
It is a bonus point system...

But our current system also is in a way, applicants just don't get to accumulate points from year to year. Under the current system each chance you pay for (up to 6) is like a "Bonus Point" and each year your chances get reset. Our current system already favors people with more money to burn as each choice cost $5-$10 and the more you pay for the better your chances get, Slightly. I think it was this last year or the year before maybe, a proposal was put into the BOG to increase the draw chances to 10 or 12. The BOG shot it down because it catered to people with more money to burn even more than the current system.

Most point systems in the lower 48 allow people to sit on their points though without actually applying each year. This new system would not allow that, you have to essentially burn your points each year, so a lot of people won't even get to accumulate many points because they will draw a tag, which is a good thing!

This new idea keeps everything about the current random system the same, except your chances from each year get banked for you to apply the next year. Applicants won't have to apply for the max 6 chances for all species each year, most don't under the current system anyway, but they would have to apply at least once for each species if they wanted to bank any points for the next year.

When looking at draw results for the current system, very few people put in for every big game species available. Some go all in on one hunt while some go the shotgun approach and scatter their six chances on different hunts. This new system would just allow people who apply diligently each year to increase their chances a bit. Still a random system though so anyone could win regardless of how many points they have or years they have been applying.

If Fish and Game had a reliable account system set up then keeping track of the rollover points would not be difficult or costly. I think they're getting close with the introduction of the new app.

For 2022 DS203 had 5,103 applications submitted (Not individual applicants). Knowing that not all applicants submit all 6 chances to one hunt, under the new system that 5,103 would not become 10,206... the number of applications would go up for sure but who knows by how much.

Also, anytime someone has multiple chances entered for a hunt or a species, when they win a permit, all of their other chances/entries become void thus increasing chances for others. Since people can't sit on their points without risking them under this new system, there shouldn't be a decades worth of points built up to then dump into the system all in one year. People build points for a few years, then draw a tag and go back to 0. Some of those people with crazy luck won't ever build any points for some species because they draw tags regularly.
Click to expand...
I disagree - it will actually make everyones odds worse.
Lets look at an example of the Draw Supplement.
DS102 - 2019-2020: 5633 applicants - 50 tags - 1%
DS102 - 2020-2021: 6020 applicants - 50 tags - 1%
DS102 - 2021-2022: 6456 applicants - 50 tags - 1%
DS102 - 2022-2023: 6963 applicants - 30 tags - <1%
DS102 - 2023-2024: 4605 applicants - 10 tags - <1%

We know numbers were low for this last one because of the rough winter and the lower sheep population throughout Alaska. Across the board applications were down a bit on the most recent supplement. But if you start bank rolling and every year I don't draw Tok - I'd have at least 9 'bonus' entries plus my current 6. So we could go from 5633 up to ... what? An unknown number on an already extremely hard to draw hunt. I don't see any advantages to this.
 
Bambistew said:
It used to be one chance, and you could apply for 3 choices. They they changed it so you could apply 3x for the same tag and then changed it to 6 a year or two later. We also used to get our results in the Sunday newspaper!

The one change I would be ok with is, if you draw a permit, you sit out of the draw for that species the next year. Currently you sit out for the tag you drew. There are OTC (harvest tickets or registration) opportunities for everything in AK except bison. Most people don't know that.
Click to expand...
the OTC thing is huge. Last year I didn't draw a sheep tag but still went out and saw sheep (nothing legal but I was there) and often times people feel like they can't, shouldn't or forget they can hunt without.
That's also one of the best things about this state is the awesome OTC opportunities! Keep it up AK.
 
Never hunted Alaska and never have I put in for any tags. That said, please don't go to any type of accumulating point system.
I have put in for Washington moose, sheep and goat for over 25 years and only a handful of those years was I just buying points. We have a bonus point system and even with all those points my odds of drawing a tag, all of which are draw only, is still well below .5% per species. I am 61 years old and hope that I will draw at least one of those tags while I can still do the tag justice. Helped out on a few moose hunts because I live in moose central, but have never had a tag and now that the wolves have well established themselves, my odds of ever harvesting a moose are getting slimmer by the year.
 
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