Draft Elk Management Plan is out

[JLS]

Cow hunts can be an absolute shit show, and what @SAJ-99 described wouldn’t surprise me in the least. I’ve witnessed similar occurrences. It can certainly be the ugly part of hunting we don’t want to acknowledge or witness.

 

[Eric Albus]

Make it illegal for a landowner to charge money, including leasing, for the hunting of antlerless elk in areas where cow numbers are over objective and/or said landowner is complaining about elk numbers and damage. Eliminate the ability to monetize them and I wonder if access just might get easier.

Not going to fly… the INCENTIVE will be we’re going cow only after 2-3 yrs until numbers are at objective.

 

[Eric Albus]

Cow hunts can be an absolute shit show, and what @SAJ-99 described wouldn’t surprise me in the least. I’ve witnessed similar occurrences. It can certainly be the ugly part of hunting we don’t want to acknowledge or witness.

This why there has to be some oversight from either the landowners, or a facilitator provided by FWP. Most landowners won’t tolerate turning the public loose, justifiably so. I’ve seen the public “hunt” elk. They’re good at dispersing, but not good at effectively harvesting. Which is why there are no elk on public land by and large. If the public would learn to “hunt elk” like the guys in private do, public land would hold elk also.

 

[TheTone]

Not going to fly… the INCENTIVE will be we’re going cow only after 2-3 yrs until numbers are at objective.

I get the concept but no chance that would fly either. I’m sure someone would figure out a connection to get some bull tags when they have a few big ones running around and no way to kill them

 

[cgasner1]

This why there has to be some oversight from either the landowners, or a facilitator provided by FWP. Most landowners won’t tolerate turning the public loose, justifiably so. I’ve seen the public “hunt” elk. They’re good at dispersing, but not good at effectively harvesting. Which is why there are no elk on public land by and large. If the public would learn to “hunt elk” like the guys in private do, public land would hold elk also.

Most people can’t figure out how to close a gate or pick up their own trash and you expect them to learn to hunt elk without pushing them into private

 

[antlerradar]

I would be on board with Eric's plan for the most part an I think plenty of other landowners would be too. Would really expose the ones that are just in it to sell bull hunts.
The issue I see is with the increase in the amount of land controlled by absentee owners that don't care how many elk they are feeding I don't see it being successful in many places. Elk will quickly learn to run to those ranches. They already do near me. Until FWP gets serious about not counting elk on land that is not hunted we are always going to have issues with elk being over objective.

 

[WanderWoman]

I would be on board with Eric's plan for the most part an I think plenty of other landowners would be too. Would really expose the ones that are just in it to sell bull hunts.
The issue I see is with the increase in the amount of land controlled by absentee owners that don't care how many elk they are feeding I don't see it being successful in many places. Elk will quickly learn to run to those ranches. They already do near me. Until FWP gets serious about not counting elk on land that is not hunted we are always going to have issues with elk being over objective.

“Until we find a way to disincentivize hoarding elk we are always going to have issues with elk being over objective.”

“Until we and FWP get the cojones to do something like ‘cow only,’ and not look at that as a punishment but as an incentive as Eric suggested, we are always going to have issues with elk being over objective.”

“Until we vote in legislators and an administration that comprehends biological and social science and seeks to represent and uphold real MT values vs. us voting blindly based on the letter that follows the name, we are alway going to have issues fixing elk being over objective [and wildlife management in general].”

“Until landowners hold themselves accountable for their actions (or inactions; e.g., you don’t want to allow access, fine, but understand that the consequences to you and/or your neighbors is on you) we are alway going to have issues fixing elk being over objective.”

“Until hunters hold themselves accountable for their actions (or the ever-increasing drive to shoot the biggest and the best and what that’s turned hunting into in the last 20(?) years, driving commercialization, privatization, demand for exclusivity), we are alway going to have issues fixing elk being over objective.”

(Whew, my inner Matt Rinella almost came out there)

Fixed it for you; pick your poison.

Counting or not counting elk based on where they reside is great in theory but not applicable in the real world, IMO.

Biologists have to limit survey periods to a snapshot in time, when elk are most visible hence winter/spring greenup surveys. Sometimes this is reflective of where elk are during the hunting season but generally it’s not entirely accurate. Surveying elk multiple times/seasons would probably be cost-prohibitive and given everything else (warmer weather, no snow, dense veg, more dispersed groups, implications of buzzing elk/hunters in the season, etc.) would be ineffective and man, you think people are pissed at FWP now wait until they spoil a stalk with a low-flying plane.

Radiocollars can get at some of this but again would not show the complete picture without a huge sample of elk collared everywhere.

Ignoring several hundred or several thousand elk holed up on a “refuge” during the hunting season is a disservice and not fair to neighboring landowners who are legitimately affected when those elk move off those properties. It doesn’t make sense when you need to consider elk impacts to habitats where resources are limited, competition with other species (mule deer), disease.

FWP has to count and consider those elk because they don’t exist in a vacuum and move across property boundaries season to season and even day-to-day.

Should accessibility of elk during hunting season be considered when looking at elk objectives and management? Hells yes. But as has been going around and around and around here it’s obviously easier said than done. Improving public land habitat conditions and limiting public land hunting will help but nothing will be resolved or close to fixed without access. Simplest solution but the hardest to implement. Whoever figures out the silver bullet to get billionaires to ‘share’ a public resource (gosh that sounds so silly and simple and it’s ridiculous we are even here as a society) deserves a Nobel Prize.

 

[SAJ-99]

Whoever figures out the silver bullet to get billionaires to ‘share’ a public resource (gosh that sounds so silly and simple and it’s ridiculous we are even here as a society) deserves a Nobel Prize.

It would be interesting if we could run the BM records and see what percentage of Block Management have an out of state tax address. I looked for about 15min and found one out of about 50-70 I checked. I know of a couple of others but those are mining and timber companies.

 

[cgasner1]

“Until we find a way to disincentivize hoarding elk we are always going to have issues with elk being over objective.”

“Until we and FWP get the cojones to do something like ‘cow only,’ and not look at that as a punishment but as an incentive as Eric suggested, we are always going to have issues with elk being over objective.”

“Until we vote in legislators and an administration that comprehends biological and social science and seeks to represent and uphold real MT values vs. us voting blindly based on the letter that follows the name, we are alway going to have issues fixing elk being over objective [and wildlife management in general].”

“Until landowners hold themselves accountable for their actions (or inactions; e.g., you don’t want to allow access, fine, but understand that the consequences to you and/or your neighbors is on you) we are alway going to have issues fixing elk being over objective.”

“Until hunters hold themselves accountable for their actions (or the ever-increasing drive to shoot the biggest and the best and what that’s turned hunting into in the last 20(?) years, driving commercialization, privatization, demand for exclusivity), we are alway going to have issues fixing elk being over objective.”

(Whew, my inner Matt Rinella almost came out there)

Fixed it for you; pick your poison.

Counting or not counting elk based on where they reside is great in theory but not applicable in the real world, IMO.

Biologists have to limit survey periods to a snapshot in time, when elk are most visible hence winter/spring greenup surveys. Sometimes this is reflective of where elk are during the hunting season but generally it’s not entirely accurate. Surveying elk multiple times/seasons would probably be cost-prohibitive and given everything else (warmer weather, no snow, dense veg, more dispersed groups, implications of buzzing elk/hunters in the season, etc.) would be ineffective and man, you think people are pissed at FWP now wait until they spoil a stalk with a low-flying plane.

Radiocollars can get at some of this but again would not show the complete picture without a huge sample of elk collared everywhere.

Ignoring several hundred or several thousand elk holed up on a “refuge” during the hunting season is a disservice and not fair to neighboring landowners who are legitimately affected when those elk move off those properties. It doesn’t make sense when you need to consider elk impacts to habitats where resources are limited, competition with other species (mule deer), disease.

FWP has to count and consider those elk because they don’t exist in a vacuum and move across property boundaries season to season and even day-to-day.

Should accessibility of elk during hunting season be considered when looking at elk objectives and management? Hells yes. But as has been going around and around and around here it’s obviously easier said than done. Improving public land habitat conditions and limiting public land hunting will help but nothing will be resolved or close to fixed without access. Simplest solution but the hardest to implement. Whoever figures out the silver bullet to get billionaires to ‘share’ a public resource (gosh that sounds so silly and simple and it’s ridiculous we are even here as a society) deserves a Nobel Prize.

Who should I vote for to fix this?

 

[Eric Albus]

Most people can’t figure out how to close a gate or pick up their own trash and you expect them to learn to hunt elk without pushing them into private

I don’t “expect them to”. So we have the current conundrum.

 

[Eric Albus]

I get the concept but no chance that would fly either. I’m sure someone would figure out a connection to get some bull tags when they have a few big ones running around and no way to kill them

Might not fly but I’ll push it.

If you’re part of the problem of over population of elk you HAD best be part of the solution to getting numbers back in check…. If that means a cow only season until we’re there, so be it. I hope it does not come to that.

 

[JLS]

Might not fly but I’ll push it.

If you’re part of the problem of over population of elk you HAD best be part of the solution to getting numbers back in check…. If that means a cow only season until we’re there, so be it. I hope it does not come to that.

I’m all for it. At the end of the day though, some folks will still be held hostage by a small contingent who just don’t care and don’t want to play in the same sandbox.

Quite frankly, some of us were begging for this in region 4 about 15 years ago.

 

[cgasner1]

Might not fly but I’ll push it.

If you’re part of the problem of over population of elk you HAD best be part of the solution to getting numbers back in check…. If that means a cow only season until we’re there, so be it. I hope it does not come to that.

I’d also be for it. I bet it would push pressure to a lot of other general areas since people wouldn’t wanna go kill cows still

 

[shoots-straight]

The incentive/kick in the ass is if we ain’t at objective in 2-3 yrs……Cow ONLY until we are……. It has to be a win/win/win….
Win for wildlife #1, win for landowners #2(they feed “our wildlife” 24-7, 365) and a win for the sporting community.

Any discussion/arguments??.... I will hardly sleep tonight anticipating the ire this may stir, hopefully I have time to check in tomorrow
Remember this all, I do know/realize wildlife are the “publics, and held in public trust……so come up with better solution than The one I’ve presented

I do hear this all the time, Lets be fair here. If all the land was private then I'd concede your statement as correct. It's not, so a third of OUR wildlife are feed by public lands, and YOUR private livestock are fed a portion of the time on MY public lands too. I'd venture to say that more wildlife percentage wise are fed on our public lands per say, but it's all anecdotal evidence.

I basically agree with the rest of the post.

 

[mtmuley]

I’m all for it. At the end of the day though, some folks will still be held hostage by a small contingent who just don’t care and don’t want to play in the same sandbox.

Quite frankly, some of us were begging for this in region 4 about 15 years ago.

Would have to be region specific. mtmuley

 

[DFS]

Might not fly but I’ll push it.

If you’re part of the problem of over population of elk you HAD best be part of the solution to getting numbers back in check…. If that means a cow only season until we’re there, so be it. I hope it does not come to that.

Good luck. I’m not sure mtfwp is looking for solutions. What you are preaching makes a lot of sense. When it makes sense they will most likely do the opposite. Longer seasons and more tags is what I see for our future. And the people at the helm saying there is no reason we can’t continue doing it.

 

[cgasner1]

Would have to be region specific. mtmuley

I figured be just in the areas they are having the problem I wouldn’t even say all of region 4 just the few units that it’s a issue

 

[Ben Lamb]

With the proposed conservation leasing do you think it would be possible to put some center pivots planted in alfalfa on public?
joking of coarse, but seriously, you can make public more appealing to elk but you will never make it more appealing than third cutting irrigated alfalfa unless the alfalfa has people with rifles pointed at the elk.

If SB 442 would have been signed, we'd be talking about doing the kind of habitat improvement projects on public land that give you the same net effect, and we'd be talking about water infrastructure development to help keep water in the streams, etc.

It's not a one or the other thing though. Your season structure can't undermine the habitat work, and FWP needs to be more involved in land management planning around all aspects of public land mgt given that so much new research is showing the summer recreation is having an outsized impact on ungulate distribution and avoidance.

 

[antlerradar]

given that so much new research is showing the summer recreation is having an outsized impact on ungulate distribution and avoidance.

Gives some support to the theory, When the homesteaders populated the plains the elk moved to the mountains, now that people are moving into the mountains the elk are moving back to the plains.

 

[Eric Albus]

If SB 442 would have been signed, we'd be talking about doing the kind of habitat improvement projects on public land that give you the same net effect, and we'd be talking about water infrastructure development to help keep water in the streams, etc.

It's not a one or the other thing though. Your season structure can't undermine the habitat work, and FWP needs to be more involved in land management planning around all aspects of public land mgt given that so much new research is showing the summer recreation is having an outsized impact on ungulate distribution and avoidance.

You’re so correct Ben. The best habitat in the world will not stand infinite pressure. We must start limiting ourselves. It is self evident that the hunting community can’t/won’t do that on their own, FWP has to do this.