Double Rifle

[Aussie_hunter_JD]

I'll admit that the plethora of game here in the U.S. leaves me little desire to travel to Africa for that purpose, but the rifles for dangerous game have always intrigued me. I'm interested in seeing the thoughts of those who have experience with them.

You do have dangerous game, I personally think the reason it's not always viewed as such is because in Africa when hunting the big 5 it's about getting as close as ethically and safely possible to take the shot. Hunting griz (and this is only from videos I've watched and articles I've read) the emphasis seems to be on shooting it from as far as ethically and safely possible.

I read that the famous PH Andrew holmberg didn't like to let clients shoot DG further than 50 yards. Outside archery I have rarely seen videos of people shooting griz from much less than double that distance.

A 9.3 in any of its configurations while at the bottom of the DG list would be a great elk and moose cartridge. I even use them in Aus on fallow (whitetail size) and it's a great round for that. In fact tomorrow I'm out with mine looking for a meat animal.

 

[TN2shot07]

Just curious if anyone has any experience with the 375 Ruger? I had a chance to handle one of the M77 African rifles chambered in it at a gun show and tried my best to justify bringing it home... Always thought a 375 H&H would be my first choice if I ever get to cross the Atlantic, but that may also be in the running now!

 

[Coonhunter56]

Just curious if anyone has any experience with the 375 Ruger? I had a chance to handle one of the M77 African rifles chambered in it at a gun show and tried my best to justify bringing it home... Always thought a 375 H&H would be my first choice if I ever get to cross the Atlantic, but that may also be in the running now!

I have a 375 Ruger Alaskan. No complaints here. Never used it on anything big yet but I love it. Have taken a few deer and coyotes with it. Worked well there. Shoots very well, pretty much anything you throw at it shoots about an inch or less. Handles great.

 

[std7mag]

Interesting....

As always, April brings another thought provoking thread to the mix.

I'll admit to not having the want or desire to hunt in Africa. But the craftsmanship of a well made double is always appreciated.

If i were to go there, me being me, i'd probably look for a Westley Richards bolt action in 425 Westley Richards.
I like things not of the mainstream.

I do find it interesting that the venerable 416 Rigby has not been mentioned yet.
A Holland & Holland double in 416 Rigby would /is good medicine for what would attempt to ail you.

 

[Europe]

I have owned a double rifle. It was English (Joseph Lang), and it was beautiful! But, but, but. It was "just" a muzzleloader and about .635" or 18 bore. Made in about 1830 as best as I can tell. Right on the cusp of the dawn of the percussion era.

If I was going to buy another double to hunt with and it was going to use smokeless powder, I would probably buy a .375 or 9.3 unless elephants were on the menu. No reason to carry the weight or the recoil of a .45 in a modern cartridge for anything less.

I was surprised to see you recommended sidelocks, April, until you mention having spare locks - I can see the appeal of spare drop locks but they are so expensive, and so uncommon and used guns never come with spare locks that I have ever seen. Instead, i would get spare springs and the tools to change them if I was really concerned. That said, how many folks bring spare elephant rifles in case their primary bolt rifle fails? I think the boxlock doubles will suffice at a much lower price point.

I like Merkels - not as much as English, but they are pretty darn reliable, strong, and somewhat reasonably priced guns - at least the shotguns are. I have one of those.

I bought my double to hunt moose, but I sold it. The moose hunting (muzzleloader only) dried up and as a deer rifle - I really had no need for both barrels. I turned a hefty profit and used that to finance a much better moose hunt with a modern cartridge rifle (albeit a single shot).

Doubles are cool as heck and they tend to hold their value (though the market in double shotties is definitely softening), but you can do a lot of other things with that money too.

I love doubles as much as anyone, but I'd rather have a great singleshot or a lever rifle and more money in the next hunt. (I say this while spending stupid money to fix a double bird gun and find yet another to go with the others).

Brent makes several good points

the 375 works just fine in Africa, especially with the bullets that are made today, no reason to carry the extra weight or deal with the extra recoil.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with box locks. Several different versions are on the market, some stronger than others, but they work just fine and have for a very long time. We just liked the idea of having the extra set with us Brent, replacement in the field was easy and quick, but this could be, and has been argued for many many years--side or box or even drop. Bottom line. Brent is correct, they all work just fine.

Nothing wrong with a Merkel. There are several good double rifle manufacturers. Some of the debate now is more about the accuracy or regulation of the barrels than the quality of the manufactured rifle. Some of the cost on some rifles are --name --plus choice of wood and engraving.

Tn2shot07 ----I have never owned a Ruger single shot rifle but have a couple of friends that own them and they speak very highly of them. Guy, on this forum has one and I think it is what he used on his Alaska hunt

sd7mag, thank you. The 425 is still used and those who have them, like them. I started out with a 416 Rigby, went down to a 375 H & H, and back up to a 450/400. Like the 425, the 416 is still used by many. I find these two and others, like the 9.3 x 64B, the 416 Rigby, 425 W.R., 505 Gibbs, 9.3 x 74 are brought into hunting discussions in Europe and of course Africa, more than in America. At one time the 425 was used by many in the Govt in various countries throughout Africa and therefore many old 425's are still around. This is probably more than you wanted to know (-:

Thanks to all who posted. It is interesting to see what the younger generation's would use.

 

[Panda Bear]

my grandfather has one and if I was to ever go to Africa I think I would take it, but for here, it is too bulky, and heavy, for my liking. He also has a single shot and I never understood the purpose of a single shot rifle. When and if a white, brown or even black bear is cranky I prefer more than one shot and find the lever and the bolt works better, for me anyway. However, in all fairness I view a rifle as a tool, so my perspective is a bit different.

Brent, that had to be a neat old gun. it would have been tempting to hang on to it. Did it still work ? How accurate was it and what was your comfortable hunting distance with it ? sounds pretty cool

 

[BrentD]

Cheyenne,
I don't think I view guns any different than you so far as their value, but just like I prefer to use and old Stanley Jack Plane instead of a modern whiz-bang powdered plane, I like to use an old gun instead of a new one. Here is the Lang with Right Barrel Deer. There was a Left Barrel Deer before I sold the gun. It had damascus barrels, beautiful locks and the wood was just perfect with original finish on it. I spent 4 yrs stalking this gun before I got to stalk WITH this gun. It was certainly a pretty thing and mint bores to boot - hard to find in old double muzzleguns. Not too heavy either. The barrels are not overly thick.

It would shoot about 4" (with both barrels combined) at 100 yds. Good enough. It was not a long range gun, the 200 yd rear leaf sight not withstanding.

As for single vs. multi-shooters. It's just a matter of simplicity, dependability, history, and making the first shot count. I may take a Marlin lever gun out from time to time, but I like singleshots just fine for big game. But then, I'm not often hunting polar bears either.

What is your grandfather's gun? Any photos?

 

[std7mag]

I find it interesting that the American hunter prefers bolt, or lever actions for "quick follow up shots" on non dangerous game.

Many question how fast a single shot rifle would be for this, completely missing the point that the first accurate shot is most important.

Don't get me wrong, i love my bolt rifles, but only once have i wished/needed for a second shot.
And that shot was not possable for the bear running away from me through the woods.

 

[BrentD]

std7mag-
you would be surprised how fast you can fling bullets out of a singleshot gun if you have planned things well and you are "motivated". I won't say it is nearly as fast as a repeater, but I have put multiple shots into elk and moose faster than you might guess. Your ammo needs to be handy of course, and the brass needs to fall free of the chamber easily.

I hunt with muzzleloaders a lot - that is where a second shot is slow. My frame of reference is, perhaps, a bit different than others.

 

[Panda Bear]

450 NE

I believe you guys,( Brent and std7mg.) I bet with practice one can get that second shot off pretty darn quick and yes I also like it when they fall over with only one shot.

April has a friend whose husband hunts Africa with a muzzleloader, even lions. I told her imho he is not playing with a full deck, but I was told there is always a PH there with a modern day dangerous game rifle, backing him up.

I have never been to Africa, but if I ever go I will not hunt with a muzzleloader

The one thing I dont understand about the " dont worry about only having one shot in Africa", as the PH will finish off the animal if needed. If I ever go and spend that much money I want to say I shot that beast, not my PH, but thats just me.

Anyway, thanks Brent, beautiful gun!

 

[LuketheDog]

I have put multiple shots into elk and moose faster than you might guess. Your ammo needs to be handy of course, and the brass needs to fall free of the chamber easily.

I was handling (fondling?) a beautiful High Wall 45-70 off the used rack at the gun store the other day, and decided if I'm ever get lucky enough to pull a Colorado moose tag, that's the weapon I will use on it. A once-in-a-lifetime tag will require a special weapon...

 

[std7mag]

Amen!!!

 

[Ben Lamb]

You do have dangerous game, I personally think the reason it's not always viewed as such is because in Africa when hunting the big 5 it's about getting as close as ethically and safely possible to take the shot. Hunting griz (and this is only from videos I've watched and articles I've read) the emphasis seems to be on shooting it from as far as ethically and safely possible.

I read that the famous PH Andrew holmberg didn't like to let clients shoot DG further than 50 yards. Outside archery I have rarely seen videos of people shooting griz from much less than double that distance.

A 9.3 in any of its configurations while at the bottom of the DG list would be a great elk and moose cartridge. I even use them in Aus on fallow (whitetail size) and it's a great round for that. In fact tomorrow I'm out with mine looking for a meat animal.

I'd have no issue shooting any north American game animal with a 9.3. It's just an tiny bit larger 35 whelen, after all.

 

[Panda Bear]

Ben Lamb, same argument I present when discussing my 348

 

[BrentD]

I was handling (fondling?) a beautiful High Wall 45-70 off the used rack at the gun store the other day, and decided if I'm ever get lucky enough to pull a Colorado moose tag, that's the weapon I will use on it. A once-in-a-lifetime tag will require a special weapon...

A agree about that "special rifle". Absolutely. To me that means one with history. Anyone that has intent on a hunt with a special rifle should start looking for it right now. They can take a while to fall into your lap. Would this Ballard #5 Pacific (.45-70) work for you @LuketheDog?

 

[pre6422hornet]

Ahh.. The double rifle. I have longed for a double for more than 25 years. The romanticism, elegance, and classic lines of a double are like no other. I think if I ever was to cross that bridge it would be a 470NE. No real reason ballistically. Just because.
,
Now with that being said... I have a 1950 Model 70 Winchester in 375H&H with a Lyman 48 and I would hunt that rifle all over Africa with not a worry in the world. Scary accurate with the peep. Classic bolt gun lines. I am the second owner of the rifle, the original was a Korean War Veteran who lived in Kansas City. He ordered it through the PX I guess and had it engraved over seas with visions of Africa. Some would say the collector value is gone, but when I took ownership in 2012 I didn't care. Damn thing was practically untouched for 62 years. His family said there was a 300H&H as well that he bought/engraved at the same time, but that one was gone by the time I saw the 375. Would have loved to have them both.

 

[pre6422hornet]

Ben Lamb, same argument I present when discussing my 348

Don't even get me started on the best lever gun ever made.... Love the 348 and it is by far my favorite rifle to carry when tracking or slowly stalking through the woods. Golf ball sized holes in and out and tremendous blood trails. Not too mention the best stock design.

 

[Europe]

Pat, it is always nice to see you post and I remember your love of the 348. I don t think I have ever run into two people who love their 348 more than you and Cheyenne.
Your 375 H & H was made in a great era, excellent rifle, congratulations. I also wish you had gotten them both. I dearly love the 300 H & H

Do you remember Aleena. It is her husband Cheyenne was talking about. He hunted lions in I think it was CAR with a muzzleloader.

Hope all is well. I will never forget your young daughter hunting out of the living room window., it was perfect (-:

Luke the dog, best of luck on the tag and the rifle

Brent, Nice!

This may not be true any longer, but twenty years ago, it was always funny to talk to folks who owned a 458 Win or Lott or even a large caliber Weatherby, say they wanted to buy a 450/400, 416, 425, 450N.E., 470N.E. to take to Africa on a hunt. The same did not hold true with plains game rifles, but the 7 x 57, 300 H & H, 9.3 x 62 were always will represented. the 8mm showed up a lot more than it does today

thanks to all for your contribution to the thread

 

[LuketheDog]

That's really cool, and nice moose! What's the story behind the rifle and the hunt?

A agree about that "special rifle". Absolutely. To me that means one with history. Anyone that has intent on a hunt with a special rifle should start looking for it right now. They can take a while to fall into your lap. Would this Ballard #5 Pacific (.45-70) work for you @LuketheDog?

 

[MO Betta]

You do have dangerous game, I personally think the reason it's not always viewed as such is because in Africa when hunting the big 5 it's about getting as close as ethically and safely possible to take the shot. Hunting griz (and this is only from videos I've watched and articles I've read) the emphasis seems to be on shooting it from as far as ethically and safely possible.

I read that the famous PH Andrew holmberg didn't like to let clients shoot DG further than 50 yards. Outside archery I have rarely seen videos of people shooting griz from much less than double that distance.

A 9.3 in any of its configurations while at the bottom of the DG list would be a great elk and moose cartridge. I even use them in Aus on fallow (whitetail size) and it's a great round for that. In fact tomorrow I'm out with mine looking for a meat animal.

I misspoke in that I meant the typical rifle used for Africa's dangerous game. Large bores, double rifles, often ornate with superb wood stocks, up close and personal use.