Does anybody really regulate outfitters on USFS lands?

Khunter said:
A bit of a rant but, I believe, some useful insights for discussion…


So, I have a high alpine, remote, elk hunt that I was pondering a pack out by an outfitter for our elk (2 tags in camp) if we felt the need.

Simple minded as I am I thought to call the Forest Service and ask “Who are the permitted outfitters for these several drainages I plan to hunt as options A-C for the 3 weeks we have to bowhunt.”

The first gal I spoke to said there is no USFS list of permitted outfitters with this info and I should do like SHE DID and search the Colorado guide and outfitters association website for the unit and start calling to ask the regulated folks where the regulators gave them permits to operate. No doubt that line of BS works for the other 90% but I am easily a top 10 percenter in the realm of instead pivoting to “Naw, I’d prefer you do your job we pay you to do instead.” She did give me the names of the 3 on that list she downloaded for my unit (which is missing at least 2 outfitters I KNOW work in there) and she had no idea which specific drainages they are permitted for. She seemed to not understand that if an outfitter is not a member of the association, they ain’t on the trade association list and if they are a member and do not submit the data they too are not on that list. This my purpose in calling USFS who ‘regulates’ the permits… Sheesh, the USFS grants the permits with specific geographic, timing and activity constraints but cannot tell me a darn thing about said permits?

So I asked/suggested there must? be someone in the office responsible for managing the permits and could I talk to them to learn who is permitted in the drainages I am interested in? Why yes there is but he will tell you what I did…and she sent me to his voice. He actually called me back a few hours later.

Step2 ). I talk to the very nice gentleman at USFS in that office who MANAGES ALL THE PERMITS I AM ASKING about. We talk and he explains permittees have geographic areas or compartments mostly defined by drainage names so him telling me the compartment names probably won’t mean much to me. I tell him I know the name and location of the significant drainages so try me. Groan from him and he starts rattling off 6 compartment names, all of which are super obvious and well known drainages. Perfect, I write them down and then prepare for receiving the very short list, or single names of outfitters permitted for my 3 drainages/compartments of interest.

So I say “Awesome, I knew this data had to exist so now all I need are the outfitters permitted for my desired day use pack out or possible drop-camp-pack-in-pack-out activity for drainages A,B, and C. I do not need the others so no need to go to the trouble for those since you said you have to dig through paper files to get it.

He says, with a lot of rustling paper sounds. “Oh man, everything is in paper files and I have over 80 permits to manage and I have only been in this job for a year, I never dig up permits to review the particulars unless there is a reported issue with a given outfitter. This is gonna take time to go through this huge paper file…I really need to organize this.” He keeps rusting and double talking and finally says this will take some time, “how about I get back to you when I pull the permitted outfitter names for the areas together”

I say sure and maybe the effort will prove useful for future requests and how about you email me if that makes it easier. He says he is doubtful the effort will be useful to his needs and I am the first person to ask who outfits where…(mind you this is a pretty high preference point area). The next day/today I get the following response to my question which remains “Which outfitters are permitted for pack in/pack out or drop camp activity in the three compartment/drainages A, B and C.

“Morning,

I was going to compile lists and information of what you requested, but currently I do not have time to get it done. Unfortunately I have priorities/permits/campgrounds that outweigh additional projects at this time.

I can give you the website that will allow you to search units, guides, hunt types and they will give you contact information for the outfitter. Please call the outfitter that meets the requirements and request information for their hunts. They know the area and terrain and can easily answer questions that will take hours for me to look up.

http://www.coloradooutfitters.org/find-your-outfitter.php

Thanks,”

Holy crap!! Asking who the permitted outfitters are in 3 drainages is considered ‘a new project?”…. leading to my thread title question’”. Who regulates outfitter permits on public land?!

Answer is Freaking NOBODY. If an outfitter is not accused of high crimes nobody at the USFS can tell you if they are even permitted to work an area, what area that is, nor which of many categories of use they are permitted for. We are told to ask the outfitter trade association and the outfitters…

Anybody see a problem with the regulators having a ‘system’, if you can call it that, where they have basically no ready access to the info about who they gave permits to and for what activity and where?

More than frustration, I think I am kinda mad this is how our publics lands are ‘managed’.

Did he not just say with a straight face. “My excuse is I am crappy at my job and so I cannot help you because being crappy at my job prevents me from providing 3-5 outfitter names so I hope you understand and sympathize that it is not my fault I am crappy at my job?”. Kinda sounds like it when I think it though from start to finish...

Thoughts? Am I being too hard on the fat fed employees here?
Click to expand...
My experience is a forest service team called "Special-Uses".
 
Oak said:
Noise added to protect the innocent. Red is closed to domestic sheep grazing to protect bighorn sheep. The black circle is the area the band of domestics was grazing, 1.3 miles from the nearest active allotment. Two out of three years now....
Click to expand...
Well that was after finding out about a report last year. After this last weekend we can say three out of the last four years.
 
I tried getting similar info from the GMUG a few years back, with the intent to hunt where outfitters weren't...I might as well have been speaking a different language.
 
Jwill said:
I tried getting similar info from the GMUG a few years back, with the intent to hunt where outfitters weren't...I might as well have been speaking a different language.
Click to expand...
The guides I run into that outfitters send to my area are a joke. Last one I talked to was here in Montana from Pennsylvania and it was his first year guiding. Never ever had set foot in the country we were in until that day. If it wouldn't have been illegal, unethical or whatever, I would have taken that poor hunter that got screwed and got him a bull. mtmuley
 
As an update. In the last area we packed in to, I as a courtesy, called the outfitter to confirm his camps were where I thought the were so we would be sure to set camp miles away from them. What I got was a request to not hunt anywhwere in ‘his’ area and a physical description of boundaries of his lease area that had to be upwards of 150 square miles…and suggestion of a couple different areas I should hunt instead. The areas he suggested are where most of the DIY truck camp hunters go…Yeah I rented livestock for the month to mix it up with the day hunt crowd…NOT. Told him I was kinda shocked he would suggest 150 square miles of a 950 sq mile hunt should be avoided.

To h@%%$# with that. We went and packed a few miles past his deepest camp and killed a great bull. And never saw sign of any hunters in 8 days. Some outfitters have a lot of nerve. He had said “I only get to hunt 10% of the unit” as if his darn lease somehow entitled him to exclusive use of forest and to try to push people out of there.

Then after our hunt we ran in to one of his guides out on the highway and he saw what a great bull we killed. And then a couple days later my brother ran in to the outfitter and outfitter said he heard we killed a good bull and proceeded to read him the riot act like we were somehow in the wrong for hunting public land. Unbelievable. Well actually totally believable. Some outfitters just give ‘outfitters’ a bad name by their behavior.
 
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Sounds like the perfect kind of asshole to ignore and treat him as deserved. You should have packed to his deepest camp and used his wall tent and burned all his firewood and left a thank you note.
In all reality though, good for you on following through with your plans to hunt it and congrats on the great bull.
 
A call to his USFS permit administrator would be in order. Followed up in writing, to the permit admin and CC the district Ranger.
 
Khunter said:
As an update. In the last area we packed in to, I as a courtesy, called the outfitter to confirm his camps were where I thought the were so we would be sure to set camp mles away from them. What I got was a request to not hun t anywhwere in ‘his’ afre and a physical description of boundaries of his lease area that had to be upwards of 150 square miles…and suggestion of a couple different areas I should hunt instead. The areas he suggested are where most of the DIY truck camp hunters go…Yeah I rented livestock for the month to mix it up with the day hunt crowd…NOT. Told him I was kinda shocked he would suggest 150 square miles of a 950 sq mile hunt should be avoided.

To h@%%$# with that. We went and pack a few miler past his deepest camp adn killed a great bull. And never saw sign of any hunters in 8 days. SOme outfitters have a lot of nerve. The had said “I only get to hunt 10% of the unit” as if his darn lease somehow entitled him to try to push people out of there.

Then after our hunt we ran in to one of his guides out on the highway and he saw what a great bull we killed. And then a couple days later my brother ran in to the outfitter and outfitter said he heard we killed a good bull and proceeded to read him the riot act like we were somehow in the wrong for hunting public land. Unbelievable. Well actually totally believable. Some outfitters just give ‘outfitters’ a bad name by their behavior.
Click to expand...
PM and let me know who the outfitter is
 
I am surprised you could even get someone to try to help you. When I started with the Forest Service, the forest I was on, had 5 people working in the "Lands" department. Managing special use permits is a very small part of that department and nobody spent a lot of time doing it. When I retired, because of budget cuts, there was one guy in the "Lands" department who if he was lucky might get an intern to help for a couple of months out of the year. I couldn't imagine that guy thinking that it would be his responsibility to take the time to provide information to the public on the exact location any outfitter was permitted to operate in. That seems more like something the outfitter might want to do. It would be nice to have all that data on GIS but then again it requires manpower and money to get it on GIS then someone has to manage it once it is there. At one point I was on light duty for five months because of surgery so I couldn't do my regular job. They had me loading survey data into GIS. I thought it was a great idea having all that information easily accessible but my complaint was that I was doing all that work but all that info was fluid and always subject to change and there would never be anyone to make those changes in GIS. Except the occasional poor sap on light duty who needs something to keep him or her busy for a few months. Special use permits would be the same.
 
Put me down for being amongst the folks here that are NOT impressed with both the USFS and BLM.
In my area, there is an Outfitter with 2 fully guided camps and 2 drop camps fairly close together. This Outfitter is a total
slob. If you visit his camps in the off season, you'll find a plethora of litter in partially burned water bottles, underwear, propane bottles candy wrappers, and other assorted items all over the place. Thing is, much of it could have been burned, or packed out if he had a litter bag set out. Then, he hides a whole bunch of stuff in his camps rather than packing it out. Also leaves electric fence wire up rather than taking it down. I've taken lots of photos and sent them to the District Office and never get a reply, and I'm pretty sure they never check on this themselves, as the litter issues get worse over time, rather than cleaned up as a result of them getting spanked.
The BLM completely ignores cattle grazing on their lands that are in clear violation of the permittees alloted dates. In viewing this issue, it's actually more work for them NOT to do their job, than it is to do it. Why is this?
 
Outfitters and government employees are there own worst enemy and continually amaze me even though my expectations are so low! I feel Khunter's pain and frustration.
 
Man, I am late to this conversation. I retired after close to 40 years with the EwwEssEffEess! Loved it and hated it at the same time. Administered OG Permits, Range , Fire Management Officer, Hydrology, Recreation, etc. Folks just don't understand how funding works. Totally micromanaged by congress! When the Cowboys don't want grazing allotments managed, funding is cut to the bone (usually during Republican administrations). Same with timber during Democrat rulers. OG permits, especially hunting, never have funding! You do it when you get a chance. Just issuing permits is usually all you can do. I administered a permit where the outfitter murdered his wife (who he was beating on) and her boyfriend and was never found. Good and bad in that bunch. I had to permit an outfitter that had been convicted of treeing lions, tying the hounds to the tree, and then flying the fat ass hunter from down south somewhere in to kill the lion 2 days later. Convicted by Colorado Division of Wildlife! Went to the good Congress man's office with his SOB story of how Thomas Jefferson was a houndsman and the mean FS was out to get him, and I was instructed to issue the permit. Don't get me going on Range magazine and their BS narratives of how they are abused by land management agencies. Especially Cliven Bundy! Tring to administer grazing allotments can really suck due to the politics involved. Do folks on Hunt Talk realize that the Colorado Cattleman's Association constantly complains about high GMU elk populations? And now they're afraid of wolves? And don't get me started on Fire Mgmt. and how that has sucked half the FS budget down that worthless black hole. I can talk a lot of shit about the FS, good and bad. An IPA and Punch Double Maduro and I can't shut up!
 
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