Do you guys really believe that all ATV riders break the law?

[JoseCuervo]

Del,

Which part is confusing? The State game department manages the game. The land agency manages the land. If you want to be on their land, you follow THEIR rules. If you want to shoot the State's game you follow the State's game laws.

Could explain what the AZ DFG is trying to communicate to YOU on page 69?

And have you not ever seen an Enforcement Officer for the BLM or the Forest Service????

Here is a picture of a warning ticket from the Forest Service....

So Del, you can call me what you want, you just can't call me "wrong"....

 

[Ithaca 37]

fecl, "So it would be up to the land agency to enforce this right?? "

In Idaho the F&G Dpt. worked out a deal a few years ago with the Legislature and the Forest Service that allows F&G enforcement officers to cite people for Forest Service violations. I think they are somewhat limited in what kinda violations but road closure violations are definitly one of them. The reason the Legislature had to be in on the deal was because they approve the F&G budget and they had to be informed about any extra duties the F&G took on. The FS went along with the idea because they know that most violations occur on weekends and holidays and there aren't any FS enforcement officers out on those days. At least there weren't a few years ago. I doubt if there are now, too. Budget constraints, of course. FS has to spend all their money subsidizing the timber extraction industry.

The F&G Dept. wanted to take on the extra enforcement duty because they could see it was the only practical way to handle the violation situation.

I suppose any other state F&G Dept. could work out the same deal if they wanted to badly enough.

*********************************************

In AZ and all other states I really believe the ATV crowd would rather not know the laws and regulations on off road driving. That way they can continue breaking the law and claim they thought off road riding was OK. (as if that's any kinda defense, but what else are ya gonna plea when caught?)

I'm still hoping the AZ boys will do more to clarify the off road regulations after they do some research into the actual facts, instead of dreaming up their own scenario.

***********************************************

"Ithica,
I have to disagree with you about this "whole issue being extremely confusing". Page 69 of the AZ regs clearly says that you have to check with the Agency."

EG, I only told the lady at AZGF that so she wouldn't feel so bad. I was trying to work up some empathy with her.

I think most people would really have to delve into this issue to understand all the different regulatory agencies involved and the responsibilities of each agency. I know it was a revelation to me the first time I started trying to figure out who enforced what in Idaho. Not every enforcement officer from every agency can go around writing citations for every law and regulation in the state. In Idaho I don't think state police can issue citations for F&G violations. FS enforcement officers can't write F&G violation citations. Most people probably assume they can.

 

[cfree]

Ithaca, who is the ATV crowd? Is it the 16 year old on the Yamaha Raptor tearing up everything in his path or is it the 60 year old retired hunter that obeys and respects the laws?

I am unclear on who exactly the ATV crowd is since I don't own one.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Cfree,

With the rapid increase in numbers, the ATV crowd is everyone from the little 8 year old without a helmet to the 72 year old, fat-assed retired guy. And unfortunately, once on an ATV, they both have the ability to due a helluva lot of damage to a helluva lot of habitat.

The ATV crowd ended up hurting themselves with their increases in numbers, and the "few" lawbreakers ended up pissing enough people off, in enough places, that the calls to restrict them keep growing. Enough so, that Bosworth, the head of the Forest Service has labled the Fat-Assed crowd as one of the 4 major threats to our Nation's forests.

And as you can see from these posts above, there is a great amount of denial that the law breaking even occurs. And there is a lot of, "Oh, it is ok for just me to go off road to get my deer, nobody else will".... Now multiply Del and CJ times several million ATVs, and you can get the sense of the problem.

 

[Ithaca 37]

cfree, I guess I'd say the ATV crowd is everyone who rides ATVs. Sorry they all get lumped together. I do know the difference between the ones who make an effort to know the law and know how to use an ATV ethically and the rest of the ATV crowd. But I'm firmly convinced that about 95% of ATV drivers don't know the laws, don't care to, and don't even know what kinda damage they cause or care to. They just like to tear around and have fun and pretend they don't impact anything---not the land, not wildlife and not other recreationists.

 

[BuzzH]

cfree,

Judging from the "cross section" of atvers here, I'd say theres about as good a chance of gramps breaking the law as the 16 year old punk. I dont care whether its ignorance of the law or what.

Its funny that the only people on this board that know the rules about atv use in AZ are people from Idaho, NM, and Wyoming...hmmmm????

I'm also sick and tired of the worn out "what about the old guy" bit. Its a joke for lots of reasons, the biggest one being that the average "hunter" I see with an atv glued to their ass is way under 60. Most are mental midgets with about zero desire to ever leave the seat of the atv.

I have no problem with handicapped people driving them behind gates, and neither does the FS, BLM, etc. as there are several programs in place that allow handicapped hunters to drive behind gates, shoot from motor vehicles, etc. I'm completely in favor of giving truly handicapped hunters special access.

That said, I dont think that old age is an excuse and I'll tell you why. My grandfather never asked for any special priveleges in spite of his 86 years, triple bypass, and stroke...he just kept chugging along and at the time of his death in Sept. of 2000 had 2 deer tags and an elk tag in his pocket that he intended to use during MT's 2000 season. He knew he wasnt capable of hunting the same country he did when he was 30...he also didnt ask to sit on the seat of a damned ATV so he still could, nor did he expect the FS to punch a road in there for him. He had his years hunting remote country and was content to know that he'd "been there, done that". He was also pretty happy that much of that country was the same as it was when he hunted it...and that future generations were enjoying the same thing he had.

 

[cfree]

ElkGunner, Buzz and Ithica,

It would appear that most of the lawbreakers are in fact recreational users of ATV's and not hunters. At least from what I can tell. I think that hunters need all the support they can get from each other. Dividng ourselves because you own an ATV and I don't seems like an unwise thing to do.

I hate seeing the damage done by ATV's but I have yet to see that damage done by a Honda Rancher with a gun rack. Maybe I am just not in the right place at the right time. Most of the damage I have seen is from the 2wd riding punks that think dusting their buddies is cool.

Then again, hunting in Arizona is pretty rare. Out of the 500 elk tags in any given unit maybe, maybe 50% use ATV's. That hardly compares to the millions of recreational riders you are talking about. I just can't put hunters in the same category as the dirt racers, or maybe I just won't. Call it denial or whatever but there just isn't enough hunting opportunity in this state to justify that. Not many over-the-counter tags here.

 

[BuzzH]

Oh man, here we go with the "all hunters have to stick together line", the second most common pile of steaming crap I've ever heard.

Come on, that ridiculous, if you dont believe that hunters driving atv's misuse/illegally use them, you're in serious denial. Head to ID, MT, WY, CO etc. around opening day of deer, elk, or antelope season and see who's riding/trailering atv's all over the state.

I dont care if they're hunters or not, if they're riding where they arent supposed to and tearing up habitat, they're just another poacher. I wont be "sticking" together with any hunters who are "sticking" it to the wildlife, wildlife habitat, and law abiding hunters all because they have a phobia of hiking boots and reading regulations. Simple as that.

 

[cfree]

Buzz,

Thanks for your input. How often do you hunt AZ? How many ATV's do you see every year during your javelina hunt? I only hunt AZ. I could care less about ID, MT, WY and CO. I suggest you fix the problems there before you worry about AZ. Again, there isn't enough hunting opportunity in this state for this to be an issue here for hunters. Deny that. Did you read anything beyond the first paragraph of my reply?

 

[BuzzH]

cfree, I've hunted AZ the last 2 years for javelina and quail. I've seen atv riding happyjacks both years with bows strapped to their atv's "hunting" javelina. I've also turkey hunted the last 3 years with a buddy of mine, again, more than enough atv's to go around.

Oh, and heres a funny story about javelina and ATV "hunters". My buddy Frank and I were glassing from a main road and we'd just glassed up a herd of pigs when around the corner comes 3 happyjacks on atvs. They stop, and ask us if we've seen any pigs. We say, "nope, no pigs". One guy says, "Yeah, its been a tough year, I've put 300 miles on my atv this weekend and havent seen a single pig". HAHA, about 1/2 hour later Frank was 20 yards from 21 pigs, one of which promptly had a tag taped to his hind foot.

Oh, and you're wrong, AZ does have issues with ATV hunters, ask any AZGF officer or anyone who's hunted elk or deer there lately. I have several friends who have hunted 6A, 5B, and the kaibab the last few years, all have illegal atv stories to tell...

I also just took the AZ hunters safety this spring for my permanent bonus point, and the instructor was pretty bummed about the ATV abuse by hunters...

ATV's are an issue in every Western state including AZ, and as a licensed paying hunter (and with a vested interest in MY public lands), I'll worry about them in AZ as well as any other state I choose to.

I cordially invite you to address the issues in my state as long as its an issue with YOUR public lands or if you buy a hunting license here. Wyoming has its problems, but we dont have to draw for everything.

 

[cfree]

Buzz,

How much is the Wyoming non-res license?

 

[feclnogn]

It would appear that most of the lawbreakers are in fact recreational users of ATV's and not hunters

I would disagree with this statement. Most of the four wheelers I see in the hunting season are a bunch of dipchits driving around looking for something to kill from the seat of their ride. The only thing that I hate more than four wheelers in hunting season is the new fad of driving around in your kawasaki mule with a elevated seat in the back and your two hunting buds at the ready with their combo guns they bought from wal mart for 327.00 bucks.

There are some on four wheelers who are legit thought and they are easy to spot. The easiest way to identify these legit guys is to see there four wheeler parked next to a trail head and remain there for the duration of the hunt.

 

[BuzzH]

cfree, I think antelope buck tags are $220, Buck deer 260, and bull elk 480. Doe tags for antelope and deer are $60 each (you can get 2 of each), and cow elk permits are 220.

The only other thing you need is (1) ten dollar conservation stamp.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Del, This sure has been an interesting and enlightening topic. Thanks for starting it!

 

[Wapiti Slayer]

Originally posted by ElkGunner:
Cfree,

With the rapid increase in numbers, the ATV crowd is everyone from the little 8 year old without a helmet to the 72 year old, fat-assed retired guy. And unfortunately, once on an ATV, they both have the ability to due a helluva lot of damage to a helluva lot of habitat.

The ATV crowd ended up hurting themselves with their increases in numbers, and the "few" lawbreakers ended up pissing enough people off, in enough places, that the calls to restrict them keep growing. Enough so, that Bosworth, the head of the Forest Service has labled the Fat-Assed crowd as one of the 4 major threats to our Nation's forests.

And as you can see from these posts above, there is a great amount of denial that the law breaking even occurs. And there is a lot of, "Oh, it is ok for just me to go off road to get my deer, nobody else will".... Now multiply Del and CJ times several million ATVs, and you can get the sense of the problem.

But when you go Bear Hunting and other people are hauling all the heavy bait to the site on ATVs it's ok?

[ 09-17-2004, 22:33: Message edited by: Calif. Hunter ]

 

[JoseCuervo]

Originally posted by feclnogn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It would appear that most of the lawbreakers are in fact recreational users of ATV's and not hunters

I would disagree with this statement. Most of the four wheelers I see in the hunting season are a bunch of dipchits driving around looking for something to kill from the seat of their ride.

There are some on four wheelers who are legit thought and they are easy to spot. The easiest way to identify these legit guys is to see there four wheeler parked next to a trail head and remain there for the duration of the hunt. </font>[/QUOTE]Fecl,

I agree with you on this one, as I don't think I see that many ATVs being 'recreated on" during the non-hunting season. Pull up to the Kwikie-Mart on a Friday afternoon in October, and the gas pumps are lined up with rigs pulling 4 place ATV trailers with scabbards on them. The same gas station in June will have people pulling boats or travel trailers.

I don't know if I know anyone who has ever bought an ATV for trail riding. They all get bought for hunting, at least as far as I know.

Cfree,
As evidence that it is the HUNTERS who are causing problems, I submit that the Idaho Fish and Game has developed new rules to deal with ATVs. I do not think the IDFG is progessive enough to implement the restrictions mentioned earlier PRIOR to there being a problem, so I conclude the restrictions are in REACTION to a problem.

 

[Delw]

I agree with buzz on a few of the issues he brought up.
I just disagree that everyone on an atv is doing things illegal.

I also believe that if you think that atvs should stay off the forrest services roads then you should stay off them with your vehicle as well, yes that includes driveing up to your hunting spots.
If its ok for full size vehicles to drive down a forrest road than it should be ok for atvs to drive down the same forrest road.

If the guys driving the atv's road hunting didnt have there atvs they would be driving thier trucks road hunting. some people just like to road hunt weather its an atv or a truck they are still going to do it.


Delw

 

[JoseCuervo]

Del,

I think the common ground everybody agrees on is that ATVs should be limited to roads that full sized vehicles can travel on.

A bit more contention is the Designated ATV trails, and I am probably ok with them as long as they don't mess with security for game. In Idaho, the Fish and Game works with the Forest Service to close many of them from Sept. 1 to April 1, for winter security reasons. Something like that is probably fair.

But the kicker to all this is the guys on the road or on the trail that are hunting on them, and in the end, that is the behaviour that gets hunting a black-eye from the outside and from the inside.

 

[Delw]

Exactly Gunner I think most if not all of us had said this over and over.


Delw

 

[BuzzH]

I just got off the phone with my buddy from AZ who is a warden there.

He told me that AZ wardens do have authority to ticket hunters for driving off road in areas that the FS, BLM, or State travel plans dont allow off road atv use (which is just about all FS and BLM lands in AZ.)

He said they usually try to contact the FS or BLM leo rather than deal with it.

One step further, he said that even on FS, BLM, or State lands that are open to cross country travel or game retrieval, if an atv leaves a track, trashes some brush, goes through a meadow, etc. they can and have scratched tickets for habitat destruction.