Do you ever try to gently educate forky hunter friends or just let it be?

[B&CTom]

Well played, Pucky Freak- I read this thread this morning and thought about the 5 stages. Given I've been going afield for 4 decades now, and having been raised a meat hunter, I can see where my mindset has changed over the years. I think it's important to allow one another our own unique experience, so long as we're operating within the laws, rules and regulations.

 

[rogerthat]

Benefits of an older age class are generally a socially-driven concept. When it comes to population dynamics bucks don’t have much impact until the buck:doe ratio drops below a certain threshold. A yearling has the same genetics at 1 year he does at 3 years or 5 years. I’m personally picky, particularly if I have meat in the freezer, but I think it’s wrong to criticize and judge others for their ethical/legal harvests. If they’re stoked, let them be stoked and be happy for them.

This is in line with Montana FWPs stance in this topic. I agree a 1 year old has the same genetics at five years old but this argument completely ignores “the which” bucks are doing the breeding portion of reproductive biology. I definitely don’t want to derail this excellent forky bullying thread. I will start a new one in about a week where we can dive into this topic and look at what the science says. I will say that the science refuting what you said is weak and the science supporting what you stated is equally as weak. I guess the question I have for you is what part do antlers play in reproductive biology? I’m struggling to agree with none as the answer.

 

[nrpate05]

Maybe you should talk to CPW to implement age restrictions. Don't blame the hunter for being legal and ethical. Would you be upset if a new hunter shot a forky? What about shooting calves and fawns? Is that wrong?

 

[mxracer317]

Younger the meat, the more tender and tastier. Just like why people eat veal.

 

[Ben Lamb]

A fawn rear quarter wrapped in bacon & smoked for hours on end is a fantastic meal.

Does, fed on grain & grass are incredible table fare

A rutted up buck is at the bottom of venison taste.

Shoot what you want if it's legal but for ****s sake don't tell me a rutty buck is about the meat. It makes me think you eat your steaks well done and that is a crime.

 

[gouch]

This is in line with Montana FWPs stance in this topic. I agree a 1 year old has the same genetics at five years old but this argument completely ignores “the which” bucks are doing the breeding portion of reproductive biology.

If the older bucks are more important from a reproduction point standpoint, than wouldn't that be an argument for NOT shooting mature bucks?

I have always hated the notion of letting a buck "reach his full potential." As if somehow a buck's potential is measured by the size of his antlers.

Here in Oregon, in an attempt to increase the number of mature elk in some units they have opted for spike only seasons. Exactly contrary to the notion of not shooting young animals to increase the number of mature animals. But it seems to work. In other units they have opted for 3 point or bigger. That also seems to work.

Maybe the key is to just reduce the amount killed each year.

 

[mxracer317]

This is gonna dispel a lot of myths for letting them get older for “genetics”

Saving an Icon of the West, Mule Deer with Professor Brock McMillan | Big Hunt Guys | Ep. 111

Podcast Episode · Big Hunt Guys · 03/14/2024 · 1h 19m

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Forkyfinder]

This is gonna dispel a lot of myths for letting them get older for “genetics”

Saving an Icon of the West, Mule Deer with Professor Brock McMillan | Big Hunt Guys | Ep. 111

Podcast Episode · Big Hunt Guys · 03/14/2024 · 1h 19m

podcasts.apple.com

Curious - if an animal lives longer and avoids predation, starvation, and freezing to death isnt a better deer to be in the breeding pool? Doesn't it have a better set of genetics?

 

[mxracer317]

Curious - if an animal lives longer and avoids predation, starvation, and freezing to death isnt a better deer to be in the breeding pool? Doesn't it have a better set of genetics?

I’m not a biologist, so I’m not qualified like that guy in the podcast.

 

[TOGIE]

Curious - if an animal lives longer and avoids predation, starvation, and freezing to death isnt a better deer to be in the breeding pool? Doesn't it have a better set of genetics?

Even the best drivers get t boned and killed by folks running red lights.

In my mind the element of luck (good and bad), while certainly not the primary driver of age, I’m sure is not insignificant.

 

[jimh406]

Even the best drivers get t boned and killed by folks running red lights.

In my mind the element of luck (good and bad), while certainly not the primary driver of age, I’m sure is not insignificant.

I don't understand your point.

 

[Treeshark]

Curious - if an animal lives longer and avoids predation, starvation, and freezing to death isnt a better deer to be in the breeding pool?

In a vacuum, I think you’re probably right.

The way things are currently, I think where a mule deer buck lives probably plays a much greater factor than any natural survival skills. Not sure how many mule deer bucks are dying of natural causes on public land these days- not zero, but I think lead poisoning is probably the leading cause of mortality.

 

[rogerthat]

In a vacuum, I think you’re probably right.

The way things are currently, I think where a mule deer buck lives probably plays a much greater factor than any natural mortality avoidance skills. Not sure how many mule deer bucks are dying of natural causes on public land these days- not zero, but I think lead poisoning is probably the leading cause of mortality.

It definitely depends on the season structure. The rut equalizes superior avoidance skills for sure

 

[rjthehunter]

Do you regret shooting the forky? Lol looks like those mt mule deer threads baited you into a trophy

Well, it was cool to see a nice buck only about 1/2 a mile off a road. It was 1000ft of vertical, and i wished I had my tag still... But I was still more interested in the elk tag! I promise my 1.5 year old tastes much better than that old one lol

 

[TOGIE]

I don't understand your point.

CPW has majority control on quality.

Other factors contribute to quality, to be sure. But on public land you have no chance in hell overriding their management plan for a DAU by letting dinks walk.

If you want to hunt good or great age class populations you gotta go to a unit managed for that.

 

[Fire_9]

I’ve got a friend who’s “in it for the meat only”, and that’s fine to me. If you depend on wild game for your family every year go for it.

I personally don’t, I ate my deer tag this year and I had seen probably 10 or so forkys. Could’ve backed my truck up and loaded one whole he was so stupid.

It’s just my personal thing that I want my hunt area to get to a mature age class, it trickles down through genetics and is better for everyone. This year wasn’t the first time I’ve eaten my tag over only seeing young Mule Deer. My standard is a mature buck.

I’ve contemplated talking to my buddy about the benefits of an older age class, but I’m not ever gonna dictate what he wants to take nor will I ever judge him. He’s taken forkys 3 years in a row, and when I mention holding out for a mature buck he says I’m just in it for the meat. Again, that’s fine. Just not me. I want the landscape to be blessed with old deer, if any of yall reading this shoot young bucks I assure you I’m not judging. You do you, it’s fine with me.

But for those of yall with standards like mine, again it’s not about the antlers just about age, have yall ever sat down with your forky friend and tried to talk about it or just let them be forever?

I live in Colorado btw, but it’s not a unit known to produce huge bucks. Maybe cause everyone blasts forkys every year.

You live in a state where hunting rights are currently under attack and you’re worried about your buddy shooting a forky? The anti hunting crowd is currently worrying about how to take away our opportunity while we worry about what another person is legally shooting. How about you use that mental bandwidth to prevent the antis from taking what you have…

 

[WanderWoman]

This is in line with Montana FWPs stance in this topic. I agree a 1 year old has the same genetics at five years old but this argument completely ignores “the which” bucks are doing the breeding portion of reproductive biology. I definitely don’t want to derail this excellent forky bullying thread. I will start a new one in about a week where we can dive into this topic and look at what the science says. I will say that the science refuting what you said is weak and the science supporting what you stated is equally as weak. I guess the question I have for you is what part do antlers play in reproductive biology? I’m struggling to agree with none as the answer.

I think that most state agencies, not just MFWP, accept that there’s a lower/minimum threshold where buck numbers start to influence population dynamics. Respectfully, that’s not very weak. I would hazard a guess that a buck’s genetics not changing over time is pretty solid, too.

Most western state agencies outside of their “trophy management” or LE areas also shoot for 15-20 bucks:100 does post-season, with the understanding that on the lower end, younger age classes prevail. But, they deem it adequate for a healthy population. I feel like that is a pretty strong consensus from a lot of folks who know a lot about deer. Also don’t forget that at higher buck:doe ratios, fawn recruitment can start to decline if resources are limiting and bucks begin outcompeting fawns.

As far as giving mature bucks a better chance to breed, if someone passes up a forky to shoot an older buck, particularly before the rut (since there’s a desire to move hunting before the rut), then that mature buck sure ain’t going to be breeding any does then. If one puts forky hunters into a lesser or inexperienced category of hunter, then imagine those forky hunters bumbling around the woods for a longer period, contributing to increased hunting pressure, etc., when alternatively they can just shoot their forky and go home with some (hopefully) great memories and meat.

To answer your question, yeah antlers play a role in reproductive biology, and unless one is farming foodplot whitetail and talking about “management bucks” and “cull bucks” I don’t think we need to interfere with and manipulate that. A dominant buck will do his share of the breeding (assuming he wasn’t shot by a more selective hunter beforehand), and other bucks will do the rest. Back to the first sentence concerning threshold numbers/ratios, I’ve not seen or heard of evidence relating to population level impacts to mule deer as a result of buck age class/antler size. Bringing CWD into the picture, due to higher prevalence rates in older age class buck mule deer, more older bucks could have negative population impacts.

 

[cgasner1]

Think you could identify deer/elk/moose if cooked and doing blind taste test? I could swear that I would have been flawless at identifying - but I'm less certain after watching this.

A lot goes into having good meat a blind taste test doesn’t mean a lot with out knowing how the meat came to be sitting on that plate.

 

[Gr8bawana]

As long as your friend is happy with his harvest and not complaining about how small his buck is let him do as he pleases. Young bucks are better eating anyway.
You don't need to talk to your friend about anything, you're the one who has a problem and it's not your tag.

 

[Bamaboy16]

Don’t Karen your friend about the size of deer he kills. If it’s legal and makes him happy, why ruin his enjoyment of the hunt.

For reference, I don’t kill small mule deer but have helped packed out plenty of forkies. Love the big smiles and excitement from friends and their kills.

That’s the point of my post, I never have and due to my hate for confrontation I never will. I was just more so curious if any of yall had ever had that conversation before and how it went. I always keep my thoughts to myself, congratulate them hard and offer to pack meat regardless of the antler size of the animal. I’ve stated my preference here and have alluded to my friends, but I will never push that opinion on a friend, or even an anonymous stranger. You do you!