Discuss Master Hunter programs here....

[JLS]

I spent a little while ruminating as to the merits of creating this thread. I can respect Randy's request to take comments and opinions about such programs to a different venue than the class announcement, so here goes.

I read @Bozone 's post about the adult onset hunter who went through the class. Cool story, and I'm genuinely happy for the person. I'm sure there are a number of other similar stories out there that follow the same theme.

My skepticism with the program is based on several factors. First, it creates a "title" that may or may not truly reflect competency, ethics, and sportsmanship. For every story like the above mentioned, I can also tell you stories of master hunters who flock shot, trespassed, didn't tag animals, and did various other things that didn't necessarily reflect well in the eyes of the public. Do these negate the value of the program in its entirety? Absolutely not. They do however, show the difficulty involved in the screening and training of master hunters to truly reflect what the programs are intended to do.

My second concern is the slippery slope of trending towards egalitarianism. Master hunter programs are built around offering incentive hunts, whereby the graduates can have opportunity the rest of the unwashed public doesn't. Yes, the MH did invest time and effort into achieving their status. That said, I know of a number of master hunters I would never hunt with in a million years. I also know of a number of non-master hunters who know enough to teach the classes. However, without the title, they are not afforded the additional opportunity. I struggle with this. Are we trending more and more towards a European model of Jaegermeisters?

I guarantee you there will be folks who enter this program simply for the self serving benefits. There will be some who will completely betray their role as a hunting ambassador, and will make us all look like buffoons. I don't know what the answers are. I'm not that smart. Experience tells me to not just jump headfirst into the pool though. I know @onpoint shares my skepticism. Maybe we are just a couple of jaded old bastards ready to be put out to pasture. However, sometimes there is a very fine line between jaded cynicism and realism.

As I said, I hope the program is a resounding success.

 

[Mtnhunter1]

JLS.... Your second concern was what I was thinking when I posted my comment on the MH announcement post. Slippery Slope, that it is.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

I never even heard of this program. I did a quick inquiry and a quick skim tells me I dont like it. I've attended a similar type schooling for the fun of it and to get a crash introduction to western US hunting. I am 100% NOT a master despite sitting in a classroom for hours and hours and receiving multiple certificates on hunting.
Just because a person holds a title or position does not mean their a good person.

It all seems silly

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@JLS after reading the story about George from OnX, watching the video, perusing the website and then comparing this program, in my mind, to Colorado's Ranching for Wildlife which I think is a different approach to a similar goal I'm left with one question.

Can you teach restraint?

It seems like this is what it all boils down to, personally I don't think any amount of class time is going to do that. In fact, one the of requirements that you don't have any violations on your record might be counter productive. Perhaps those who have screwed up are those that know the consequences the best and will behave better in the future.

Also I've met a ton of well educated A-holes and a lot of salt of the earth folks who didn't finish highschool. I really doubt that reading Leopold is going to keep you from taking a shot at that sky lined massive bull, or teach you not to drive on wet roads, close the gates, etc.

I like the idea of the program, honestly I'm like exactly the programs target audience. New hunter with no baggage, enough experience to be committed to the sport but not enough to have sitting through hours of class piss you off, I don't have kids so I could actually sit through 50 hours of course work... just so we are clear a master's degree is usually 30-50 hours of course work... so this is a significant investment of time. Also because of the lack of kids and having a job in an urban area I can pay for the $350 class plus the trespass fees that are charged to get on private... yeah read the fine print on that. "landowners may charge a nominal daily access fee in order to offset costs associated with hunter access on their properties. " What's nominal $5, $50, $500... one personas nominal is another persons grocery budget.

My question I guess for someone trying affiliated with the program is whose your target audience? Are you really only interested in people like me, is there no place in the program for someone who spent their life hunting in Montana, getting their own access to private through building relationships, and who has killed hundreds of animals. Are you going to make them jump through the same hoops? Why would they even be willing to? Can you kick someone out of the program?

My gut reaction is that the program is that it is elitist, it's not bridging the rural - urban divide so much as it's connecting wealthy rural ranchers with adult onset wealthy urban hunters.

I too share your worry that it's seems to trend towards the European model... reminds me of conversations I've had with @devon deer about what it takes to be allowed to do an unguided hunt in the UK. Honestly the parallels are striking.


My 2 cents, maybe One Montana should look at improving hunter ed programs across the board, instead of creating a secondary system that is enjoyed by people with means.

 

[Werty]

The more I chew on this idea, the worse it tastes. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[----]

For some reason that doesn't make sense to me now, I signed up for the "Master Hunter" program last winter. After looking over the curriculum and who would be doing the lectures, I passed and told them to give my spot to someone else. After doing so, the director got in contact with me, and after my interaction with him I was very happy with my decision. I spent those evenings looking for bears and sheds instead and felt that was a much better use of my time.

My gut reaction is that the program is that it is elitist, it's not bridging the rural - urban divide so much as it's connecting wealthy rural ranchers with adult onset wealthy urban hunters.

That's more or less my take away from it, and I would be surprised if their demographic strays much from that. The class represents a lot of what I hate about what hunting has become in Montana.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Seems to me that going through the program would not make you a worse hunter or person. Will it make you better? That's debatable and largely up to the individual. I can find no harm with the program. I am all for people being better educated. If it does that, then great. If all it does is get a person better access to otherwise off limits private, then that's a win. I am all for less people wanting to hunt the public sections I hunt and i suspect most MT residents would feel the same. I wouldn't get too hung up on the title "Master Hunter". They could call it "King of the Castle" or "Captain of the dipshits" and it wouldn't mean any more or any less to me. It doesn't get you special privileges from the State as far as i can tell. Having a hard time seeing why people are twisted up either way.

 

[JLS]

It doesn't get you special privileges from the State as far as i can tell.

In some programs it does. Not sure how Montana's will shake out.

 

[Nameless Range]

This is an interesting discussion. I was unaware such a program existed.

After reading through the other thread and checking out their website, all of the above concerns seems valid.

I do think it is an interesting concept, and also a valid one, that landowners want a bit more skin in the game and proof a guy gives a shit than the fact that a fellow spent $85 on a Sportsman License before they allow someone on their property. That makes sense too, and I think the spirit of something like this is one I agree with. In practice though, it's the reason public land is the alter of the church that is hunting. No certificate/hours of training/approval of others required.

The word Master could easily be taken as heirarchical. It's certainly part of my own arrogance, but I'm too prideful anymore to allow someone else to dole out proclamations of proficiency on me. It's the reason I'll never go back to school. The fact that it costs a fair chunk of change, and the fact that the classes are not open to the public, does lend itself to an elitist feel.

 

[BigHornRam]

My understanding the "master" part of the title is taken from training levels in the trades. Master plumber or electrician for instance. Don't understand the hang up regarding this.

 

[----]

My understanding the "master" part of the title is taken from training levels in the trades. Master plumber or electrician for instance. Don't understand the hang up regarding this.

Hunting isn't a trade, and being an accomplished hunter isn't a measurable skill.

 

[FI460]

My understanding the "master" part of the title is taken from training levels in the trades. Master plumber or electrician for instance. Don't understand the hang up regarding this.

I was under the impression that these programs were done through university cooperative extension, adapted from the master naturalist and master gardener programs that are very popular. Knowing what I know about those programs I had no inclination to suspect a hierarchical association...

 

[BigHornRam]

Hunting isn't a trade, and being an accomplished hunter isn't a measurable skill.

Just means that you have received some advanced training. Doesn't mean that you now know it all and do not need to learn new skills in the future. The learning part is up to you. Free choice..... just like the program.

I grandfathered out of hunter ed but went and took it anyway about 20 years ago when my wife started hunting. We took it together. Excellent program and I learned a lot. Very glad I took it. I started bow hunting later in life, and had to take the bow class in order to bow hunt in Montana. Great class and glad I did it.

Additionally I would like to thank all the individuals that unselfishly volunteer their time to help put on these educational programs to help train and educate both current and future hunters in this state. Thank you!

 

[Wrong Burgundy]

In some programs it does. Not sure how Montana's will shake out.

No, it doesn't afford you any special access that any of us could get by simply asking a rancher/landowner for permission; there is no 'golden ticket'. You do get to meet and interact with landowners, as it is part of the curriculum via the landowner/sportsman relations component, so having that face to face is helpful, but no instant access.
Also, several of the ranches involved require more skin in the game with regards to access, regardless of what program they went through -- for instance, one ranch requires a day of improvement via conifer lopping for mule deer habitat. I asked also about the age range of applicants -- 17 years old up to 80 years old for the last class. Interesting mix of folks.

Like many things, it will be for some people, and not others, or some may not approve of it.

 

[noharleyyet]

If Buzz was teaching it I'd come to Montanny...do ya'll have a foreign student exchange program....

 

[Deleted member 28227]

No, it doesn't afford you any special access that any of us could get by simply asking a rancher/landowner for permission; there is no 'golden ticket'. You do get to meet and interact with landowners, as it is part of the curriculum via the landowner/sportsman relations component, so having that face to face is helpful, but no instant access.
Also, several of the ranches involved require more skin in the game with regards to access, regardless of what program they went through -- for instance, one ranch requires a day of improvement via conifer lopping for mule deer habitat. I asked also about the age range of applicants -- 17 years old up to 80 years old for the last class. Interesting mix of folks.

Like many things, it will be for some people, and not others, or some may not approve of it.

It seems like this is to some extent working to privatize hunting in MT, ie working outside of the state agency to control access to properties.

APR is similarly trying to do conservation on a private basis.

I'm curious how MT feels about these two systems state and private, running concurrently. Is the public system so damaged that privatization is the only fix?

Taking a long view of both APR and One Montana, you could have a situation where hunting regs, seasons, number of animals taken, and who gets to hunt are dictated by non-state actors. What I mean by that is Montana has extremely long seasons and generous quotas, private land owners are able to say how/when/who hunts on their land... they can't make less restrict hunting regs than the state, but than can make more restrictive regs.

 

[onpoint]

Most of the above is why I first posted my skepticism in the other thread.
Yet some more interesting stuff being addressed in a substantive, timely, and totally appropriate discussion for a forum for DIY hunter who hunt public land.
I'm glad this discussion began.
I have no personal skin in the game (other than what I have done for an entire lifetime) - but are some who do getting paychecks, fringe bennies, and other perks? If so, I'm not real sure what to think about that.... And who among them exemplifies "Master Hunter" and just what the hell does that mean?? Beside the definition granted by the program itself. The exclusive access thing is a whole nuther.........

Nice to have NHY weigh in........................
Again interesting stuff.

 

[Ben Lamb]

In the instance of the MT Program, it's important to note a couple of things:

1.) This is a private entity doing this program, not the state. One Montana is a good group that looks to bridge urban/rural divides. Their program does not mean that the state of MT - the legal entity in charge of managing our hunting opportunity - is giving anyone special preference in terms of access or creating a higher class of hunters. Being private, it's not much different than hunters who look down on other hunters for using one brand of camo versus the others.

2.) This program was put together with input from a large variety of stakeholders, including die-hard public trusters. I think they've found the middle ground and I would say that when you work to bring landowners and hunters together in a way that shows respect to landowners while creating more access, then you're doing ok.

Leasing for hunt clubs, outfitting, etc has a far more elitist effect on hunting that this program. Type 2 block management, Habitat MT easements with tight prescriptions on access, landowners only enrolling portions of their ranch in Block, etc all can be viewed as elitist, and promulgated by the state, yet we stand up for those programs.

The people I know who were behind the creation of this program are solid individuals who all believe in the public trust. Their motivation wasn't so much to create an elitist class of hunter as it was to provide landowners who want to allow access, but are weary of poor hunter behavior to have some identifiable metric of ethics that currently do not exist or are not addressed by the hunters education certificate.

The thing that keeps the United States from ever really going down the German route is public lands. SO long as there are ample lands for people to get out & hunt, we'll always have the ability to get out & hunt. If you want to hunt the properties associated with the MH program, then you need their certificate.

I'm ok with the program.

 

[onpoint]

"The thing that keeps the United States from ever really going down the German route is public lands. SO long as there are ample lands for people to get out & hunt, we'll always have the ability to get out & hunt".

Good point and appropriate qualifier.

"Type 2 block management, Habitat MT easements with tight prescriptions on access, landowners only enrolling portions of their ranch in Block, etc all can be viewed as elitist, and promulgated by the state, yet we stand up for those programs".

Disagree on that one. I think/hope you can see the one significant difference between those and the access the "MasterHunter" program affords......

 

[Ben Lamb]

Disagree on that one. I think/hope you can see the one significant difference between those and the access the "MasterHunter" program affords......

I appreciate your perception, but on Type 2, it's often called a system for only friends & family. Meaning unless you have a significant in, then you're out. Same thing right?