Deer, Elk at risk from drilling

[BuzzH]

BHR,

So according to your previous post...the reason for high prices is because oil and natural gas are in short supply?

Answer this, when was the last time your furnace in your house didnt ignite when you flipped the switch? When was the last time you waited in line for gas at the Ole's in Hamilton?

Wheres the shortage? They dont exist, its a lie, and you believe it! What a sucker!

Corruption and Bush campaign contributer kick-backs have more control over oil and natural gas pricing than supply and demand.

Anyone with even a remote clue knows that.

 

[Nemont]

Buzz,

Just a point of clarification: Just because you don't wait in line for gasoline or for natural gas piped into your home does not mean that there is not more demand for that product. The market delivers these products we demand based upon the supply available it really is that simple. That is a pretty silly example.

There is more demand for natural gas because of many factors including many more gas burning electical plants coming online in recent years. When demand for energy increases, world wide, the price goes up. In addition it isn't surprising to me that Exxon had record profits in the year that their primary product, petroleum, was priced at record levels. It is not like they will just sit on that money and not do more exploration and invest in new plants and technology.

As Jose is always saying that Corporation exists to make money for the shareholders of the corporations. Those holding oil and gas corporation stock should be happy.



Buzz can you prove to me that Bush is manipulating the markets and deliberately increasing the prices of oil and natural gas because I can a lot of independent sources that discuss the connection between supply/demand and the petroleum market. We may be paying a war premium on Middle East Crude due to instability caused by the Iraq war, the problems with Iran, the Chavez affect in Venzuela, the Work over schedule at most U.S. refineries and the affects of Katrina but to say Bush is controlling the market to drive up prices to make his oil buddies happy is not reality. That one doesn't compute. Nor liberal or non liberl bias used.

Production and the supply of Natural gas has increased but not as fast as demand has risen.

Whether or not gas should be drilled for on public lands is a completely different debate.

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

Yes, Bush has something to do with it...and you provided your own proof in your post.

No need for me to post anything more.

One question for you...do you feel there is price gouging going on for natural gas and oil?

If not...

Please explain the record profits.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,
Check the price of Natural Gas over the past 6 weeks. You will see that it proves BHR is an idiot and once again made himself look like the fool he is.....

 

[Nemont]

But Buzz those are market forces not GWB, who you accused of being a total dimwit, manipulating the international oil trade. I have come to the conclusion also that GWB is not a good president but I also do not believe he controls the price of energy to enrich his buddies.

Again deliver proof of what you say. Hard evidence please. I can't believe someone as smart as you believes that kind of stuff.

For the record I don't think enough Natural Gas could be produced by this project to justify the impacts on Wild Life particulary Mule Deer. This area should be left alone.

Do I think there is price gouging? Define price gouging. Are you saying a company is making too much of a profit? I don't mind if a company makes a profit even a "obscene" profit. Again as Jose says Corporations are in the business of making a profit for their shareholders. That is their nature.

I still heat my house and don't think twice about what the natural gas bill will be.

Jose I looked it up but don't see the connection sorry I am not very smart so explain it to me.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/ngw/ngupdate.asp

If the deal is that natural gas and oil are a commodity traded in NY I understand that also.

Let me ask you this question who gets more political clout because of high energy prices? The Dems or the Republicans? It is a central theme of the Dems. Why would the Republicans give them this issue?

I hate to use Dilbert as an example but here goes.

Our silly little 'addiction'

Dilbert: I'm thinking about buying a more fuel-efficient car.

Dogbert: Why?

Dilbert: It's my patriotic duty to reduce this country's dependence on foreign sources of oil.

Dogbert: Why?

Dilbert: Because then the countries that hate us will have less money to fund terrorists.

Dogbert: Actually, developing countries would buy the oil you saved. Thus adequately funding those same terrorists.

Dilbert: At least I wouldn't be funding them myself.

Dogbert: Oil is a fungible commodity. The capitalist system virtually guarantees that you'll end up buying the lowest cost oil from sources unknown to you.

Dilbert: Well, maybe, but I want my car to make a statement.

Dogbert: And the statement would be "Hey, everyone, I don't understand what fungible means."

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

Dont you find it just a little coincidental that oil companies are posting record profits, are raping the public lands of the West for every last ounce of oil, and that they just happened to contribute heavily to Bush? You do remember that Bush has had dealings with oil...right?

You do remember that Bush sent a directive to the BLM, FS, etc. to expedite oil and gas development on all Federal lands...you do remember all these things...dont you Nemont?

Explain to me how giving your oil buddies free reign of the Wests public lands is not manipulating oil and natural gas.

Surely, you must be smarter than that and have a decent memory at least.

 

[Nemont]

Nemont,

Dont you find it just a little coincidental that oil companies are posting record profits, are raping the public lands of the West for every last ounce of oil, and that they just happened to contribute heavily to Bush? You do remember that Bush has had dealings with oil...right?

You do remember that Bush sent a directive to the BLM, FS, etc. to expedite oil and gas development on all Federal lands...you do remember all these things...dont you Nemont?

Explain to me how giving your oil buddies free reign of the Wests public lands is not manipulating oil and natural gas.

Surely, you must be smarter than that and have a decent memory at least.

Those are seperate issues Buzz.

None of those things lead to higher energy prices. Are you saying that increased production and new drilling on public lands is leading to higher energy prices? I need to see some supporting documentation to go along with that.

What my question to you was give me proof that GWB is manipulating the price energy and provide a sound reasoning for such a policy.

I am not advocating "raping" federal lands or anything of the sort. You made the accusation and all I want is hard proof that what you are saying is true. Nothing more. I don't believe anyone, including the President, has the power to control a market so vast and complex but if you have proof then let's see it.

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

Hell yes I'm saying that increased drilling and opening public lands has caused an increase in price. Do you buy gas more often than once a year?

Has the price of natural gas and oil went up or down since we began drilling the hell out of the West?

Uhhhh, dont think too long, just check out the price at the pump now compared to a couple years ago.

We're drilling more (increasing supply) and paying more...what part of supply and demand does that follow?

The issues are not seperate, Bush is manipulating oil and gas by directive....plain and simple. No reason to argue any further, its just a fact.

So, you're trying to tell me that by allowing his oil cronies to drill and drill and drill public lands PER HIS DIRECTIVE (Do I need to re-post the directive?) that it is not controlling or manipulating oil and gas?

WOW!

Of course its manipulation, and you know it is.

By the way, apparantly I'm not the only person in America that thinks theres some monkey-business going on...have you read the news lately? Seems the oil execs have some explaining to do...

 

[1_pointer]

College boy's like Pointer, Buzz, Ithaca, and Jose must have sleep through econ 101 and missed the part about supply and demand.

Actually I did pretty good in econ 1, as most of the course involved explaining various graphs.

My gas bill went up in Nov. because of increased gas prices. Gas prices (locally) are now over 30% lower than then, but my price/unit is still the same? So, if gas prices go down, assuming true supply and demand, it means that one or both supply and demand decreased. Yet price didn't? Just find that odd.

I'm not against a corp making a profit. I just find it suprising that the profits from Exxon are higher than ANY company in ANY industry in ANY time in history. After the internet stock boom of the '90s I figured it would be a tech company.

PS-Gas prices have yet to affect my life in any discernible way...yet.

 

[Nemont]

Nemont,

Hell yes I'm saying that increased drilling and opening public lands has caused an increase in price. Do you buy gas more often than once a year?

Has the price of natural gas and oil went up or down since we began drilling the hell out of the West?

Uhhhh, dont think too long, just check out the price at the pump now compared to a couple years ago.

We're drilling more (increasing supply) and paying more...what part of supply and demand does that follow?

The issues are not seperate, Bush is manipulating oil and gas by directive....plain and simple. No reason to argue any further, its just a fact.

So, you're trying to tell me that by allowing his oil cronies to drill and drill and drill public lands PER HIS DIRECTIVE (Do I need to re-post the directive?) that it is not controlling or manipulating oil and gas?

WOW!

Of course its manipulation, and you know it is.

By the way, apparantly I'm not the only person in America that thinks theres some monkey-business going on...have you read the news lately? Seems the oil execs have some explaining to do...

have you considered external pressures upon the price of gas? Like the commodity markets and world markets for such products. Can you explain how your theory works that increased supplies lead to higher prices? In addition explain how GWB's directive to drill, drill, drill has led to higher prices. I cannot figure out the linkage.

Again I am not saying it is right but your theory, if correct, would be revolutionary that increased supply (W/O any other market forces) leads directly to increased costs. I know several Economist would be interested in that model, it would probably earn you or them a Nobel Peace Prize.

Can you give me proof that this is taking place? If I looked at it in terms of 1982 dollars I am still paying less for gasoline then I did. I guess I should say show me documentation of this phenomenon.

I am paying more for a lot of things and paying less for a lot of things as well. Whom should I blame for some of the decreasing price of some goods? Somebody is manipulating them also.

I buy gasoline at least three times a week if not more. The price rose dramatically and fell dramitically right after the hurricanes in the Gulf. Who manipulated the weather to increase the cost of Gasoline?

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

I dont think we're arguing different points...

Let me re-state.

I, like you, find it very difficult to believe that after increased drilling through Bush's directives, that supply isnt increasing. It has to be, you cant drill like a maniac and not have more supply.

Do we both agree that supply has got to be increasing with all the drilling thats taken place? Combine that, with the fact that I havent had to wait in line for fuel for my truck, or have had my gas turned off the furnace in the house, I'd say there is no fuel shortages out there. Would you agree with that?

My point is that Bush, through his accelerated drilling...to the point of industry not being able to drill FAST ENOUGH to keep up...that it effects the supply, thusly the oil and gas market. His directives are manipulating the market.

So, if thats the case, why, with increased drilling, which means increased supply...are we still paying more? Thats my point, right there. We shouldnt be paying more when supply is increased. Thats why I told BHR if by drilling my public lands I dont see a real decrease in prices of my gas and oil...I may as well have decent hunting and not thrash my public lands. We're taking a hit TWICE, they're gouging my wildlife habitat and gouging me on the price of oil and gas.

If the market is driven by something as simple as supply and demand, theres no way with the increased drilling and supply, that we should be paying higher prices...but the fact is, thats exactly WHAT IS HAPPENING. I didnt make anything up, thats what the situation IS. Dont ask me, I want the same answers you're asking me, I didnt increase supply and then jack your gas prices...the oil companies did. Ask them.

The external pressures that you are talking about are manipulations of the market, not based on anything to do with supply and demand...and are controlled by whom?

See 1-pointers post, he did a pretty good job of explaining what I'm apparently failing to.

 

[BigHornRam]

Nemont wasn't sleeping during econ 101. Buzz must have been cruising the conspiricy theory web sites during his classes. God this is funny stuff to read!

Buzz, right now they are putting in gas lines to transport the increased production of nat gas to major markets. That's the transportation factor I stated. If you can't get your product to the consumer, then it would be considered a supply problem. I use propane to heat my water and as a back up heat source. It is delivered in a truck, not a pipeline and is stored in a tank I own. You should see the seasonal fluxuations in price on propane.

Pointer, if your energy provider locked in on a longer term price for it's gas, it could take awhile for prices to go down, even if the prices are down since. That's the price you pay for locking in. My electic coop provider locked in a 10 year contract right after dereg. at a rate that was considered high at the time. Now it's a bargain. That's speculation for you.....sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

 

[BuzzH]

...and has absolutely nothing to do with supply and demand economics.

Its a market that is not driven by supply or demand...just on what "price" is locked in. The market is not allowed to move based on supply or demand.

Beings how there arent many providers, the consumer is then at the mercy of a few corporations who control the markets (as per BHR's previous post on mergers, etc.)

Deregulation working its magic on the consumer.

 

[BigHornRam]

"Beings how there arent many providers, the consumer is then at the mercy of a few corporations who control the markets (as per BHR's previous post on mergers, etc.)"

And who's fault is that Buzz? Were you whinning when you were getting gasoline at below cost? That's when the big fish where eating the little ones. No one was paying much attention then to what the energy companies profit's were. They were just giddy about the low price of gas and whether or not they could get it for a penny a gallon less down the street. Like I said, this has been a long time in the making....didn't happen over night....and Dubya did not have any say in it.

 

[Nemont]

Buzz,

I am through with this. Just felt like arguing with somebody yesterday. I wish someone would start to manipulate the cost of health insurance downward. All of the renewals coming in for May are double digit increases, some are over up over 70%.

Nemont

 

[MarvB]

Interesting debate going on here and, hopefully, I'll get the chance to re-read it and perhaps weigh in a bit. The one thing I did see was the comment/thought that since we can all flip a switch and our furnaces come on that there must not be a shortage? I know that statement was simplified but economics/supply/demand aside- that furnace will ALWAYS lite if you are supplied by a LDC (PG&E out here for example). They are concerned about storage and transport- could care less about price because they pass it through. The are REGULATED/MANDATED to have X number of therms in storage and availabe on X day of the year regardless of price because they don't want Grandma to flip the switch and freeze....now Grandma's ability to pay for that gas is another debate...

BHR- looks like you Gov. is coming out to give us a talk on how good things are in 'Tana...he is a keynote speaker at the NWPublic Power meeting this spring

 

[BigHornRam]

Marv,

Are you trying to get put on Buzz's ignore list? Posting facts that make his opinions look bad is a good way to do it. Just think how Buzz would react if Schweitzer had an R behind his name. Probably would acuse him of being one of Schrubs cronies!

Still waiting for Jose to disclose whether or not he profited off of Katrina. With all the tight lipped silence I'm starting to think he consulted his lawyer first.

 

[Ithaca 37]

"College boy's like Pointer, Buzz, Ithaca, and Jose must have sleep through econ 101 and missed the part about supply and demand."

I have to assume that was posted by one of the idiots on my "Ignore" list. Actually, I did OK in Econ 101 and ended up with a degree in economics. BTW, it's "slept" through, not "sleep through". I have a question for whichever idiot posted that. What's wrong with going to college? Please be specific.

 

[BigHornRam]

IT,

Nothings wrong with college if you can apply what you've learned to the real world. Based on what I've read here, several of you where seriously cheated by the Universities you attended. I'd ask for a refund, if I were you.

 

[BigHornRam]

Here you go Pointer. Here's a letter to the editor from an angry guy who is upset at the local energy supplier for not locking in at the correct time. Good chance this guy with 20/20 hindsight would also been upset if Northwestern locked in learly last year and then the gas prices went down after they locked in. Sometimes you just can't win.

Let's hold NorthWestern accountable
It's been a tough and expensive winter with energy bills reaching crippling levels. It's pretty easy to find the culprits. They are the natural gas purchasers and they really fell on their butts in 2005.

What the ratepayers are experiencing is the cost of bad judgment on the part of a handful of buyers who bet, with our money, that the price of natural gas would drop last summer. It didn't. It went up. Suddenly they were faced with no stock and the responsibility to purchase sufficient natural gas supplies at crisis pricing.

The bozos at NorthWestern Energy should be summarily fired for not considering two basic purchasing principals: No. 1. Don't gamble on your suppliers. No. 2. Every once in a while double zero comes up on the roulette wheel.

Mark Stergios, Missoula