Dangerous Game Rifle ?

[JB Florida]

Ok ABS, Its you & me Buddy,

What Caliber do you prefer for Buffalo & Lion?
Also, are you paticular about the brand of rifle? A lot of folks are pretty hung-up on (CRF) Controlled Round Feed.
As I normally use Remington's I'm Leaning toward One in 375H&H.
I'm assuming 300 mag is fine for leopard.

 

[ABS]

Hi JB, sorry for only replying to your posting now, but I was MIA for the passed few days.

The 375 IMHO is the minimum calibre required for Buff. / Lion, and I prefer a 416 Rigby, depending on how many Buff./ Lion you intend to hunt. If it is for a once off occation the 375 will do, but if not rather the 416 Rigby.

I am not too particular regarding the brand, but for Buff./Lion the single shot types (eg. Ruger) is not my favourite. When hunting Buff./Lion you need atleast 2 immediate shots in case the first one did not do the job properly. IMHO, if you did not succeed the first time, and the Buff. would storm you, I am of the opinion that you will only have one more opportunity before the PH have to join in on the kill.

I myself are not part the CRF crowd. Where do stand on this issue? Again depending on what you hunt and how often, a Remington bolt action will do, otherwise dubble action when hunting dangerous animal more often.

The 300 mag. is perfect for leopard, although you will manage a leopard with a smaller calibre, even a .243 will do. A leopard has a highly developed nerve system which makes it volnerable for the smaller calibres.

I enjoyed your posting on the old site, which explained your last trip in detail, I hope the next hunter who returns from his/her Africa trip will follow your inisiative. Are you planning on comming again? If so, you should let me know, is remotely possible we should set up a getting together, could be nice. AND THAT GOES FOR ANY OTHER PERSON WHO MIGHT READ THIS AND BE IN SA SOMETIME.

Keep well.


[This message has been edited by ABS (edited 02-14-2001).]

 

[JB Florida]

Thanks for the reply !

Most likley, I will only hunt Lion & Buffalo
one time....but you never know

I haveshot a 375 and the recoil was not a problem, but i'm not sure I could go to 416 without developing a flinch...
I recently found a remington action in 416 hoffman ??? I reload, But I think that caliber is pretty obscure and I have never even seen any brass for sale in that caliber.

Thanks for the compliment on my previous post.
Until later,
JB

 

[Harry]

My two gun combo is a 338 Win Mag and a 416 Rem Mag.
Hard to get me in a bind when I have either of these.

 

[Duster]

OK I would like to know why one needs such a big caliber to shoot a lion or buffalo?
I would think that my 338 loaded up with good bullets would get the job done surely. I am also thinking that such a big cannon would really start a person to backing away when firing it at anything. I was told once that a Mossberg Shotgun shooting a 3.5 inch magnum is the same as shooing a .453 Win mag, it this true? If so I guess I would have to wrestle that there lion like Jim Bowie, because I can't take that kind of banging around anymore. Most of the duck hunters down here that bought those Mossbergs got rid of em real quick like or went to shootin 3 inchers instead.

 

[cathunt-mt]

duster,
Go to the movie store this weekend and rent a tape on cape buffalo & than you will understand why they recommend what they do.

cathunt

 

[Duster]

Cathunt-mt I remember reading a book on rifle calibers once, and Mr. Jim Carmichael stated that the 338 win mag was good for just about anything. He had in fact taken lion and buffalo with his 338 mag. I don't go to video stores or watch all that phony business on hunting animals buy people wanting to make money off of the hunting world. Lets face it, most are like western movies, you see one you see them all. Not my way of learning things mind you. A head shot from a 338 will kill anything on this planet, I'll bet my truck on that one. How many takers we got out there?

 

[JB Florida]

Hello All,

Duster,
I imagine that many cape buffalo have been taken with less than a 375.
That said, In southern African countries The
Minimum legal caliber to hunt Buffalo & Lion
is .375 (really I think its 9.3mm)

I went on a plains game hunt last summer
(see the thread here) and I found the game to be MUCH tougher than our deer/Elk.
In Fact, Most bullets do not even exit the animal on a broadside shot (double lung)
With a 300 magnum.

I wanted to ask ABS's opinion because those guys hunt TEN MONTHS A YEAR !
They also hunt many more species than we Americans. Because of those 2 factors,
They get more experience in one season than
we Americans get in a lifetime!

As far as reciol goes, It seems to be different to everyone. Most folks where I hunt in alabama think a 7mag or a 300mag
is overkill. The thing all of us in the US
forget is different bullet weights and styles
were made for a reason.
Everyone does not hunt whitetails!
Like my dad shoots a 30-06 but uses 125 grain nosler ballistic tips to increase the velocity. But he thinks if I use a 300mag to shoot a heavier 30 caliber bullet it will vaporize a deer completely.

Oh yeah, a 375 kicks similar to a 3" slug to in my opinion. But it's just plain mean on the killing end!
Also Duster,
I have heard the movie "in the blood" is a great hunting Africa movie. It's done by a hunter, not the typical bunny hugger film.
JB

 

[Duster]

JB I do appreciate your come back, I don't know anything about the hunting laws in Africa, really never gave it much thought mind you. I do know that many many big game animals have been killed over there with 7x57 rifles in years past. Those rifles can't hold a candle to the 338 with a 250 grain bullet. I know that I can shoot mine well enough to get the job done, it holds a 1/2 inch group @ 100 yards with Barnes xlc bullets. I put more stock in being able to put the bullet in the proper place than bigger is better theory. I would like to hunt Africa one day, but it will have to be in the far future. I also wish to say that Mr. Jim Carmichel is in the old Nosler (green book) reloading manual talking about shooting his lion and buffalo with the .338 magnum. One shot kill on the lion and 2 shots on the Cape Buffalo.

 

[cathunt-mt]

Duster, I agree that a .338 will take anything down that is what I hunt with up here. But if I am going after buffalo I think I would take a bigger gun just for insurance.

cathunt

 

[JB Florida]

I totally agree that shot placement is everything. Caliber aside, if the bullet does not go to the right spot,
Houston, we have a problem!

Its my intention to get the gun early enough
(a year in advance) to become completely familar with it.
I have been told the typical distance to shoot buffalo is 50 to 60 yards, I think bigger is really better at 50 yards.

Youguys are right, a 338 would be better for th plains animals. I think exit wounds are always a good thing.
I saw that in the Nosler Book!
JB

 

[Duster]

JB I once put 3 bullets clean through a moose in Canada at 70 paces with that 338 and barnes 250 weight bullet. So I really don't think that buffalo would stop those slugs either. Not unless their sides are made of steel. I am sold on the 338 caliber gun, just don't think I need anything bigger is all. I wish you lots of success with your hunting and new toy.

 

[Anaconda]

I can see using a .375 on buffalo, but lion ?
Seems like major overkill to me. Whats a big lion weigh ? 450, maby 500 lbs. I would think a .375 H&H would blow right through and not even expand very well. A .338 with regular expanding bullits would seem like better lion medician. I know they can be nasty, but we're talking about an animal thats about 1/2 the size of a big bull elk. Just my opinion, I have no Africa experince. What do you guys think ?

 

[JB Florida]

Anaconda,
I'm pretty sure South African law requires the 375 minimum on Lion also.

I would think a 300 mag would be fine.
I only have a couple of friends that have taken Lion, One was with a 378 Weatherby mag
and the other was with a Bow. The bow required 2 or 3 arrows (GOOD BACK_UP RIFLES)
The 378 killed in one shot, but they put another in for insurance.
JB

 

[Duster]

JB I found that 416 Remington brass, I think you were the one looking for some. It is in the Midway catalog Phone #1-800-243-3220

Mister did you ever drop the hammer on that 378 rifle? It will kick you worse than a single barrel 10 gauge, that's the gospel to your ears.

 

[JB Florida]

Hey Duster,

Thanks for the info!

About that 378 weatherby, No, I have not shot it. But My uncle has a big ass scar
on his eyebrow!
So I believe you when ya say it packs a wallop.
JB

 

[Duster]

Boy what you going to do or should say hunt with rifle like that?

I had a friend that dislocated his shoulder bone shooting that 378 weatherby from a prone position. Hope you get your brass ok.

 

[JB Florida]

I hope to go back to Africa next year for a cape buffalo and Maybe a Lion.

I'm getting my gun situatition sorted out early, I figure the recoil will need some getting used to!
JB

 

[ABS]

Hi to you all,

Lets face it, most are like western movies, you see one you see them all. Not my way of learning things mind you.

That is what they say about xxx rated movies as well, you'll never know untill you've done it yourself. IMHO hunting movies in general is nothing more (or less) than a remake / reflection of an individuals hunting experience, although i tend to contradict myself by adding that this is true when we talk about home movies or those commercialized movies of a actual hunt taking place. Apart from just watching the movie, one can be assured that you can learn a lot from these movies, but on the other hand what would this knowledge be worth if you do not apply it in practise, nice to know at the least in stead of need to know.

I am sure that JB is a valuable source of info (knowlwdge) regarding hunting in Africa, he is in a position to explain the diffs. between your hunting and that of an African hunt, that is why i enjoyed his "story" explaining his trip of last year.

JB, regarding the legal question of calibre for Buff etc., legislation (in the Eastern Cape province) stated that for hunting Buff., Eland, Kudu, Wildebeest, Oryx or Red Hartebeest any calibre bigger than 6.5 mm is legally required.

To add my 2 cents to the issue of calibre and bullet requirements for Buff. and Lion, i tend to agree that size does not always determine success nor does it 100% guarentees your safety if your first shot missed the killing spot. Someone argued that a LION is half the size of a mule / moose, yeh, that might be the true size reflection, but a moose does not have claws that will rip your head off is you are at the receiving end of a wounded lion's tackle, nor is it common for a moose (i think) to be charging for the source of it's injury. Legislation IMHO cannot provide for logic, and although a .243 calibre would kill a lion, we must not forget that it is not the gun which does the aiming, if you are confidant enough to try a lion any thing smaller than 375, good for you, i will not as i do not have a death wish. A Buff. is as dangerous as a lion, although not armed with claws and teeth, i have seen a pick-up which was struck by a charging Buff. The pick -up was a right-off, and imagine what it would do to a human.

"Assumption is the mother of all f***-ups", and to assume that you can rely on your own capabilities when hunting Buff / Lion without powerfull backup is suicide in my view. I would rather start of with a "too large" calibre and after a few hunts reduce the size according to my personnal performance regarding shot placement the works. It is easy to get a 1\2 " grouping @ 100 yards on a shooting range, but believe me, although the gun remains unchanged, some definitly change within the guy behind the gun when you step out off the confort of the shooting range into the African wild.

I will most certainly get off the soap box now, and wave you all goodbye. I think it is time to go and look for a horthog or two right now, well that if after i downed a lion lager (local beer).

Greetings
JR

 

[John White]

I would take the recommendations of a fellow named Finn Aagard who once told me to take a .30/06 and a .416 Remington. He said that although a lot of guys bring a .375H&H as a one gun hunter, the .416 works better on dangerous game like buffalo and elephant. He said the .30/06 is plenty of gun for leopard and antelopes up to 500#. I can't think of a better information source.