Dams That Never Were

[Dakotakid]

An old timer I worked with at college spent several years after ww2 surveying for hydro dams in Montana. Was interesting to hear some of his stories.
One dam proposal was to fill the big coulee south of Ryegate with water from the Yellowstone. Interesting to imagine when driving in there.

 

[AlaskaHunter]

Here’s a good one from the east side.

Tocks Island Dam Controversy - Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

View attachment 157105

That was one were the land was acquired and is now
a 70,000-acre National Recreation Area
managed by the National Park Service.

 

[AlaskaHunter]

In 1954, the Army Corps of Engineers planned the Rampart Dam project on the Yukon River.

The resulting dam would have created largest man-made reservoir in the world.

The Corps of Engineers completed its study of the project in 1971, and the final report was released to the public in 1979.
In 1980, President Carter created the Yukon Flats National Wildlife Sanctuary, which is now the Yukon Flats National Wildlife Refuge.

 

[hank4elk]

Good Stuff!
I can think of a dozen I knew that were never built in CA. I can think of several that failed or just filled with silt.

We just dodged a bullet on the Gila & San Fransisco river diversion deal here in NM......they are still trying.

 

[Ben Long]

This report actually can be traced to Jim Posewitz, who always said it was just as important to teach the history of the dams we DIDN"T build as it was to teach the history of the dams we did.

 

[JEL]

An on topic article from the Billings Gazette.

https://billingsgazette.com/outdoor...68e4c07ad.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

 

[FI460]

Big new California reservoir on track for $2.2B federal loan

A long-delayed plan to build a giant reservoir in Northern California to help withstand the U.S. West’s notorious droughts got a huge financial boost on Thursday when the federal government signaled its intent to loan the project nearly $2.2 billion — about half of the cost to design, plan and...

www.yahoo.com

Wasn't sure if I should post this here or in the drought for the west thread, but I figured this one was interesting enough that it deserves a bump.

One of the things I commonly heard on Idaho bar stools from ex- Californians was that California wasn't doing enough for water storage.

 

[Goodfish]

As a capitalist contractor I’m thinking great, they can pay us to put it in now, and pay us to take it out in 30 years. As a taxpayer Im thinking—follow the money because it pisses me off and I don’t care enough about fruit and nuts to support California’s continued assault on its own and others resources to support building in the desert. As a sportsman I cant keep it straight. Destroyed salmon runs, jacked up striped bass runs, great black bass waters, great duck hunting. The smart guy was the ex-Californian!

 

[atlas]

After a steelhead fishing trip to the south fork of the clearwater. I was reading up on the history of the fishery on the clearwater. In 1910, a dam was built in Harpsters (upstream of Kooskia). It completely blocked out steelhead and chinook salmon until it was ripped out in the 60s.

I happened to catch a 34 inch steelhead in the vicinity of the old dam site.

 

[Flynarrow]

Idaho's High Mountain Sheep Dam at the mouth of the Salmon River where it joins the Snake....the mid 1960s proposed dam would have stopped all anadromous fish in the Salmon River as well as the Snake upstream from the confluence of the rivers. There was already engineering paint on the walls of the canyon I passed doing a "pre-impoundment" fisheries project in this area for my Masters Degree.

Climate change may very well precipitate renewed interest in water storage reservoirs as well as trans basin diversions as traditional water sources change and population surges in metropolitan areas. Be prepared as new water fights will be renewed.

 

[Salmonchaser]

Good stuff. I appreciate the effort.

 

[Nameless Range]

Thought about this thread this weekend. For the first time in my life, we went and goofed off on Noxon Reservoir, one of a few dam-created lakes on the Clark Fork River. We went with some friends who, unlike me, own a boat – though I am 90% of the way to convincing my wife we need one.




With someone with a different take, I had a good long conversation about dams. In particular the Paradise Dam that was never built, but would have turned most of the lower Flathead River into the 3rd largest waterbody in Montana.

In mapping dams that never were, and celebrating free flowing rivers, I kind of wonder if I and others are too biased against dams. I am certainly not advocating for the creation of any new dams, which would be logistical and social nightmares, and I do wonder about the things we are missing, whether it is the stuff we know – like the effect of the Snake River Dams on fish, or what we don’t. but I would not be surprised if many of the dams that never were would be celebrated today if they had come to fruition.

If you polled the residents of Helena about whether they would want the near by dams of the Missouri removed in the name of cottonwood riverbottom and free flowing water, I’d bet most would prefer the lakes. Part of that is that lakes almost seem more, “utilitarian”. Near everything most do on a river you can do on a lake and then some, but another part of it may be that, because lakes and water belong to all Montanans, it literally creates more “access” in both literal acreage, and possibility. Even consider the OP of this thread. Allenspur Dam would’ve buried thousands of acres of elk and deer habitat, and dammed the longest free flowing river in the U.S. – something I am personally glad did not happen. But then again, it would’ve created a big damn lake everyone could enjoy where now sits a hell of a lot of McMansions and Dude Ranches few do.

I suppose the opposing part of the conversation's perspective, which I am kind of sharing here, is not the prevailing wisdom on this site or even in my mind, but there’s a devil needing his due – the lake that the Paradise Dam, for example, would’ve backed up would’ve been an interesting beast – whether it be the goodness of tailwater fishing, flood control and power generation, or the discussion of whether or not lakes >rivers when it comes to economic boosts for rural communities.

I’m not saying I am bummed that many of the dams in this thread didn’t come to fruition, nor am I opposed to the trend of removal of dams in the name of fish and wildlife, just thinking out loud that reservoirs have the ability to provide their own value and are interesting human achievements and that I suppose those things should be a part of the conversation about Dams That Never Were.

Obligatory Hunt Talk sweatshirt and sunset photos. Noxon Reservoir is a pretty place:

 

[SAJ-99]

Thought about this thread this weekend. For the first time in my life, we went and goofed off on Noxon Reservoir, one of a few dam-created lakes on the Clark Fork River. We went with some friends who, unlike me, own a boat – though I am 90% of the way to convincing my wife we need one.

With someone with a different take, I had a good long conversation about dams. In particular the Paradise Dam that was never built, but would have turned most of the lower Flathead River into the 3rd largest waterbody in Montana.

In mapping dams that never were, and celebrating free flowing rivers, I kind of wonder if I and others are too biased against dams. I am certainly not advocating for the creation of any new dams, which would be logistical and social nightmares, and I do wonder about the things we are missing, whether it is the stuff we know – like the effect of the Snake River Dams on fish, or what we don’t. but I would not be surprised if many of the dams that never were would be celebrated today if they had come to fruition.

If you polled the residents of Helena about whether they would want the near by dams of the Missouri removed in the name of cottonwood riverbottom and free flowing water, I’d bet most would prefer the lakes. Part of that is that lakes almost seem more, “utilitarian”. Near everything most do on a river you can do on a lake and then some, but another part of it may be that, because lakes and water belong to all Montanans, it literally creates more “access” in both literal acreage, and possibility. Even consider the OP of this thread. Allenspur Dam would’ve buried thousands of acres of elk and deer habitat, and dammed the longest free flowing river in the U.S. – something I am personally glad did not happen. But then again, it would’ve created a big damn lake everyone could enjoy where now sits a hell of a lot of McMansions and Dude Ranches few do.

I suppose the opposing part of the conversation's perspective, which I am kind of sharing here, is not the prevailing wisdom on this site or even in my mind, but there’s a devil needing his due – the lake that the Paradise Dam, for example, would’ve backed up would’ve been an interesting beast – whether it be the goodness of tailwater fishing, flood control and power generation, or the discussion of whether or not lakes >rivers when it comes to economic boosts for rural communities.

I’m not saying I am bummed that many of the dams in this thread didn’t come to fruition, nor am I opposed to the trend of removal of dams in the name of fish and wildlife, just thinking out loud that reservoirs have the ability to provide their own value and are interesting human achievements and that I suppose those things should be a part of the conversation about Dams That Never Were.

Obligatory Hunt Talk sweatshirt and sunset photos. Noxon Reservoir is a pretty place:

View attachment 284475

View attachment 284476

Are you postulating that lakes are better than rivers, economically and ecologically? Maybe. Depends on a lot of things. But if you want to dam the Mussellshell, I can think of some ideal places to put underwater permanently.

Sound like you have the perfect situation…a friend with a boat. You might want to start a “Should I buy a boat” thread/poll to see what people say.

 

[Nameless Range]

Are you postulating that lakes are better than rivers, economically and ecologically? Maybe. Depends on a lot of things.

To that question: No, I am not. The bolded is where I am at. Just more kind of trying to think out loud in a balanced way based on a convo I had last weekend with a friend that made me think.

If you talk to a lot of folks in the world of conservation, dams are the devil. I guess what I was blabbering about in that post was a thought that it's not that simple.

That family has generously taken us out on their boat many times over the years. We never ask to go and they always turn down my attempts at compensation for fuel and such to the point that I have to be sneaky about "paying them back". They are great folks and we have fun, but I just feel too guilty accepting any more of their graciousness. Thus, I need a boat.

 

[Gerald Martin]

To that question: No, I am not. The bolded is where I am at. Just more kind of trying to think out loud in a balanced way based on a convo I had last weekend with a friend that made me think.

If you talk to a lot of folks in the world of conservation, dams are the devil. I guess what I was blabbering about in that post was a thought that it's not that simple.

That family has generously taken us out on their boat many times over the years. We never ask to go and they always turn down my attempts at compensation for fuel and such to the point that I have to be sneaky about "paying them back". They are great folks and we have fun, but I just feel too guilty accepting any more of their graciousness. Thus, I need a boat.

If you get the boat, you’ll figure out you had friends you didn’t know you had… ole buddy ole pal.

 

[SAJ-99]

To that question: No, I am not. The bolded is where I am at. Just more kind of trying to think out loud in a balanced way based on a convo I had last weekend with a friend that made me think.

If you talk to a lot of folks in the world of conservation, dams are the devil. I guess what I was blabbering about in that post was a thought that it's not that simple.

That family has generously taken us out on their boat many times over the years. We never ask to go and they always turn down my attempts at compensation for fuel and such to the point that I have to be sneaky about "paying them back". They are great folks and we have fun, but I just feel too guilty accepting any more of their graciousness. Thus, I need a boat.

Sounds like they are slow-playing a plan to try to sell you theirs.

I guess any decision like a dam has to be looking at through a lens of what is being given up. Prime habitat continues to shrink, so some of them are just bad ideas.

 

[TOGIE]

There’s lots of interesting perspectives on dams.

There indeed two types of reservoirs though, off channel and on channel. On channel dams notoriously mess with two types of habitat: water based and land based. Off channel tend to primarily destroy land based habitats. Certainly the two are interwoven in ways though and not mutually exclusive.

There some big dam plans on the colorado front range of colorado, one huge one being built. Both off channel, both primarily destructive to land based habitat needed by wintering deer and elk.

It remains to be a difficult thing for me. I work in water and I see the desperate need for this water storage and yet I simultaneously see the desperate need for every inch of habitat that we can preserve.

Funny how some people who adamantly oppose these huge off channel reservoirs own boats and fishing poles they use on the other very large reservoirs mere miles away. Further funny that their existence and children are both the need for the current reservoirs and the ones being built.

There’s elements of NIMBY, elements of genuine love for wildlife and habitat, sometimes people have both. Sometimes only one or the other.

Rambling thoughts. Dams are remarkable part of our nations history and also a depressing one. Most of us wouldn’t be able to live where we do without them though.

I have a book on my night stand I’m still meaning to read: At the Base of the Giants Throat. I need to get to that.

 

[BrentD]

There’s lots of interesting perspectives on dams.

There indeed two types of reservoirs though, off channel and on channel. On channel dams notoriously mess with two types of habitat: water based and land based. Off channel tend to primarily destroy land based habitats. Certainly the two are interwoven in ways though and not mutually exclusive.

There some big dam plans on the colorado front range of colorado, one huge one being built. Both off channel, both primarily destructive to land based habitat needed by wintering deer and elk.

It remains to be a difficult thing for me. I work in water and I see the desperate need for this water storage and yet I simultaneously see the desperate need for every inch of habitat that we can preserve.

Funny how some people who adamantly oppose these huge off channel reservoirs own boats and fishing poles they use on the other very large reservoirs mere miles away. Further funny that their existence and children are both the need for the current reservoirs and the ones being built.

There’s elements of NIMBY, elements of genuine love for wildlife and habitat, sometimes people have both. Sometimes only one or the other.

Rambling thoughts. Dams are remarkable part of our nations history and also a depressing one. Most of us wouldn’t be able to live where we do without them though.

I have a book on my night stand I’m still meaning to read: At the Base of the Giants Throat. I need to get to that.

If you create more water storage, you create more people and yet another and bigger water shortage. More storage, more dams, are not the answer.

 

[Southern Elk]

I’m amazed by the engineering that goes into big dams, but I’m in the camp that wishes they didn’t exist, at least in wild and scenic areas. I would have loved to have seen the Colorado before it was dammed.

 

[TOGIE]

If you create more water storage, you create more people and yet another and bigger water shortage. More storage, more dams, are not the answer.

Chicken or the egg argument. Hard to say for sure who is right.

I’m not aware of many states passing laws preventing people from moving there or preventing them having children. Unless you do that it’s hard create situations where less water is needed

In reality, ignoring the complicating effects of weather and climate, I would argue it is more people that necessitates more water, not more water that necessitates more people however. The latter is not how water planners necessarily do their jobs.