CWD- again and forever.

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Turning CWD into a business is worse IMO.

Agreed and that business looks good for some with the continued stilted government response.

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[Treeshark]

Solving the CWD problem absolutely should turn into a business.

The past 50+ years have shown us that it is likely the only way anything will ever get done.

 

[Nick87]

Solving the CWD problem absolutely should turn into a business.

The past 50+ years have shown us that it is likely the only way anything will ever get done.

Define "done."

 

[brockel]

Define "done."

When there’s a way to make money off it it will never be “done”

 

[Nick87]

When there’s a way to make money off it it will never be “done”

Never let a crisis go to waste or something like that.

 

[SAJ-99]

Solving the CWD problem absolutely should turn into a business.

The past 50+ years have shown us that it is likely the only way anything will ever get done.

I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade, but how long has scrapies in sheep been around? Sheep are generally a money-making enterprise and how has worked out? I certainly hope a vaccine or cure or whatever is found, but right now we are still constrained by what we don’t know.

 

[brocksw]

I appreciate all the information you've shared in this thread and others. But, this comment is by far my favorite. States (WI) being the primary example ruined the publics trust with the way they handled CWD.

This has caused the "inconsistencies" in management. They so poisoned the publics trust in them that they have been fighting an up hill battle to earn back trust in whatever treatment plan they come up with.

I mean I hear you, and for sure some of that blame falls on wildlife agencies, but not all of it. Some of it falls on you, me, hunters.

Put yourself in their shoes. They are legally and often times constitutionally mandated to manage a public trust resource, not just for you, but for all. Imagine the inherent difficulties that just come with that. You hear and are aware of a lot of the political pressure they receive, but imagine the stuff you don’t hear and don’t know about. Think of all the crazy stuff you’ve witnessed and heard regarding hunters opinions, complaints, conspiracy theories, on wildlife management decisions on a variety of topics. You would be shocked how frequent and common those things are, and almost always baseless claims or things twisted and taken completely out of context. The lie can spread half ways across the state before the truth even puts its shoes on.

Then some of those same people out on Facebook, organizing groups to come for your job and threatening to drag you behind a horse, all over baiting restrictions (yeah, I’ve seen that). I mean, I could go on and on and on and on about all the stuff they have to deal with from the public, from folks like you and me.

How many of these once bright eyed and bushy tailed youngsters, in love with the outdoors, walked into school at 18 yrs old with dreams of becoming a deer biologist or a veterinarian, only to learn they were going to spend half their time as a quasi press secretary trying to defend every accusation that comes along.

I bet it’s beyond exhausting, and in almost all cases more than any person should have to endure in a job like that. How would you deal with that stuff at your job? I think, just like them, just like me, and everyone else here, after a while you just tune it out. What other choice do you have? Don’t get me wrong, I’ve gotten pissed at NDGF folks, had my disagreements with them. I’ve even hurled some accusations at the MTFWP on this very forum, but I shouldn’t do that, I’m trying not to do that anymore.

So, I think the least we can do is show them respect and work with them, and leave the cynicism and conspiracy theories in the gutter where they belong. If we want good, science based wildlife management that protects our resources and our traditions, I think it best to reconsider our approach to some of these conversations for the benefit of hunting and hunters.

Just my 2 pennies

 

[brocksw]

@brocksw you have compelled me do start reading up again on this. I came across this article from 2019. Is the study they are completing in WI a continuation of this study?

Smith: The annual mortality rate for CWD-positive deer is double that uninfected animals, a new study shows

Data obtained in 2018 from the Southwest Wisconsin CWD, Deer and Predator Study backs up what was seen by the DNR in 2017, the first of five years of monitoring.

www.jsonline.com

Honestly, I’m not sure. Im inclined to say yes, but the one I’m referring to is still going and that article said it spans from 2016-2021. The one I’m referring to collared over 700 animals. But perhaps they got more funding and decided to continue or extend that one? I’m sorry I don’t have the answer.

 

[Treeshark]

I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade, but how long has scrapies in sheep been around? Sheep are generally a money-making enterprise and how has worked out?

 

[Treeshark]

Define "done."

I said “get anything done.” At this point, any sort of coherent mitigation plan would fit that definition. As would point-of-kill testing.

I don’t think it is prudent to waste another $100 million and 50 years to wind up no closer to any sort of meaningful progress.

I resisted wading back into this one, it is a hot button issue to be sure. Also, I do appreciate your posts on this subject @brockel and @brocksw even if we do not often agree.

 

[brockel]

I said “get anything done.” At this point, any sort of coherent mitigation plan would fit that definition. As would point-of-kill testing.

I don’t think it is prudent to waste another $100 million and 50 years to wind up no closer to any sort of meaningful progress.

I resisted wading back into this one, it is a hot button issue to be sure. Also, I do appreciate your posts on this subject @brockel and @brocksw even if we do not often agree.

That would be a game changer if you could test and know on site if deer is positive or not. The way it is now people just aren’t having them tested unless you go through a game check station which we don’t have in my area if the state. People aren’t willing to wait the couple weeks for results and either let the deer continue to hang or put all the time and or money into processing it just to toss it when their results come back a couple weeks later positive.

 

[brocksw]

View attachment 331200

Profit motives and business interests had very little to do with the success of scrapie breeding programs that significantly reduced scrapie. That program was so successful because they were able to find a genotype that was completely resistant to scrapie. They have not found that with any of the cervids.

Even if that genotype did exist, or if this less susceptible genotype was able to provide some improvement, we have no idea what that actually means for wild deer. It presents significant challenges with unknown repercussions. The list of variables in that equation is long, and when you put the questions down on paper and start considering ramifications, there are some potentially disastrous possibilities.

 

[Treeshark]

Profit motives and business interests had very little to do with the success of scrapie breeding programs that significantly reduced scrapie

I disagree- in fact, I think it was likely the active ingredient.

That program was so successful because they were able to find a genotype that was completely resistant to scrapie.

“They” in this instance was a State/Fed/Industry cooperative. Perhaps that could be an effective pathway for CWD moving forward?

 

[JM77]

That program was so successful because they were able to find a genotype that was completely resistant to scrapie. They have not found that with any of the cervids.

There has been one found for elk which makes your statement false. What are your credentials in all this?

 

[brocksw]

There has been one found for elk which makes your statement false. What are your credentials in all this?

I presume you’re talking about the LL gene?

To my understanding, that is not resistant, only less susceptible with a longer incubation period. In the case of Lucky the elk, she was a one off edit: who never contracted it, but both her offspring(who also both had the LL gene), contracted it and died from clinical CWD.

That has not been able to be replicated to my knowledge. And fwiw the LL gene is the least common genotype in the wild.

But please, if you have something to prove otherwise I would surely like to see it. TIA.

 

[JM77]

But please, if you have something to prove otherwise I would surely like to see it. TIA.

But please seriously, that's the whole point. Who is proving anything? You?

What are your credentials in all this?(second ask) Do you have some peer reviewed research material? What research group on CWD are you a part of? You use the word "we", so which wildlife agency do you belong to?

 

[brocksw]

But please seriously, that's the whole point. Who is proving anything? You?

Well, If you’d like I can cite the peer reviewed literature for pretty much everything I’ve said. In cases where the research hasn’t been published yet I have emails/conversations from the researchers themselves.

But I get the feeling that won’t change your attitude, so I’m inclined to think that is likely a waste of my time.

What are your credentials in all this?(second ask) Do you have some peer reviewed research material? What research group on CWD are you a part of? You use the word "we", so which wildlife agency do you belong to?

No credentials. Just a nobody with some rare time to kill on a weekend.

When I say “we” Im speaking, rather ambiguously, in terms of our collective knowledge. All of us, you, me, anyone paying attention. Not, trying to claim credit for any of the work that’s been done. In fact, I make my stance on that quite clear not too far back in this thread.

But my apologies for offending you.

 

[SAJ-99]

View attachment 331200

I get that is good news, but we have to acknowledge how it was accomplished. The disease has been around for hundreds of years and there is no “magic bullet”. I have hope because science has come so far over the last 30 years, but we need to be realistic. Getting a specific gene in a domesticated animal is whole different exercise than doing it in free roaming animals. And Mother Nature has a problem because the disease is so slow in progressing those that are susceptible are as likely to breed as those that may have a preventative gene.

All I’m saying it is going to take time and it’s going to cost money. The best way for us to assist is by recognizing the state of the situation and avoiding the bat guano conspiracy theories and those that generate them.

 

[brocksw]

I get that is good news, but we have to acknowledge how it was accomplished. The disease has been around for hundreds of years and there is no “magic bullet”. I have hope because science has come so far over the last 30 years, but we need to be realistic. Getting a specific gene in a domesticated animal is whole different exercise than doing it in free roaming animals. And Mother Nature has a problem because the disease is so slow in progressing those that are susceptible are as likely to breed as those that may have a preventative gene.

All I’m saying it is going to take time and it’s going to cost money. The best way for us to assist is by recognizing the state of the situation and avoiding the bat guano conspiracy theories and those that generate them.

There’s a fundamental difference between scrapie in sheep and CWD in deer.

Codon 171 with two R alleles, or a 171RR sheep is actually resistant. Resistant as in to my knowledge there has never been a documented case of classical (infectious/contagious) scrapie in a 171RR sheep. That was found relatively quickly.

“They” (State/Fed/Industry) have been looking for over a decade in deer, and no such gene has been found. We’re talking hundreds of thousands of individual animals being analyzed. This is why I say business interests and profit has little to do with the success of the scrapie breeding program. Business interests and profit might have been the base motivation to start looking at genetics as a solution, but without the right genotype existing, there would’ve been zero success.

 

[Weimer]

It annoys me to know end when the bating is the whipping boy for CWD. It’s spreading in states with baiting its spreading states without baiting it doesn’t make any goddamn difference.

It doesn’t look like these mass cull operations have made any difference either. We are going to kill all the deer to save them???