CWD- again and forever.

[brocksw]

Yes that red area is the primary outfitting in Sask as that’s all public land. I have never heard of anyone in Sask nor myself has ever sat over bait for mule deer. On my old phone I have pictures of fields full of deer from my last time down in southern Sask pheasant hunting. Honestly 200 deer in a field

I don’t think there’s any question about baiting increasing exposure and transmission. But I would agree it is curious that mule deer, who generally don’t “hit bait” in the way whitetails do, can still have it worse.

But based on my conversations there seems to be some thought that the reason for that is because of the places mule deer live.

Some work done by Dr. Judd Aiken, showed that clay soil types increase infectivity by up to 680X.

https://news.wisc.edu/soil-particles-found-to-boost-prions-capacity-to-infect/

Oral Transmissibility of Prion Disease Is Enhanced by Binding to Soil Particles - PMC

Soil may serve as an environmental reservoir for prion infectivity and contribute to the horizontal transmission of prion diseases (transmissible spongiform encephalopathies [TSEs]) of sheep, deer, and elk. TSE infectivity can persist in soil for ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here they were actually able to associate soil type to increased risk.

Soil clay content underlies prion infection odds - PMC

Environmental factors—especially soil properties—have been suggested as potentially important in the transmission of infectious prion diseases. Because binding to montmorillonite (an aluminosilicate clay mineral) or clay-enriched soils had been ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Sask hunter]

Every year the mule deer creep further and further north and I have even seen a few in those red areas so I imagine it’s only a matter of time till CWD pops in there too

 

[Weimer]

I would agree that Saskatchewans culling efforts 20 years ago were a bit of a mess. Kind of a “spray and pray” method. That did little, and like you say, probably pushed it around more than it helped. But I would say culling these days is no longer like that. Much more controlled and focused, even down to family groups. Back then there was a thought that if you guys killed enough deer it would get rid of it all together. That was obviously incorrect.

I sure there was a study that stated that was the correct way to get it under control.

Now it’s the soil. Whitetail and mule share a lot of the same habitat in a lot of states.

 

[Sask hunter]

I don’t think there’s any question about baiting increasing exposure and transmission. But I would agree it is curious that mule deer, who generally don’t “hit bait” in the way whitetails do, can still have it worse.

But based on my conversations there seems to be some thought that the reason for that is because of the places mule deer live.

Some work done by Dr. Judd Aiken, showed that clay soil types increase infectivity by up to 680X.

https://news.wisc.edu/soil-particles-found-to-boost-prions-capacity-to-infect/

Oral Transmissibility of Prion Disease Is Enhanced by Binding to Soil Particles - PMC

Soil may serve as an environmental reservoir for prion infectivity and contribute to the horizontal transmission of prion diseases (transmissible spongiform encephalopathies [TSEs]) of sheep, deer, and elk. TSE infectivity can persist in soil for ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here they were actually able to associate soil type to increased risk.

Soil clay content underlies prion infection odds - PMC

Environmental factors—especially soil properties—have been suggested as potentially important in the transmission of infectious prion diseases. Because binding to montmorillonite (an aluminosilicate clay mineral) or clay-enriched soils had been ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ya but why get rid of baiting when they naturally herd up every winter anyways. Just seems unnecessary attack on hunters 6-12 deer in a bit is a drop in the hat compared to 50-100 that are on some spilled grain or kicked a grain bag open

 

[Sask hunter]

I sure there was a study that stated that was the correct way to get it under control.

Now it’s the soil. Whitetail and mule share a lot of the same habitat in a lot of states.

Can’t control the soil just have to wait for nature to takes it course and hope eventually CWD resistant deer come out of this disaster

 

[brocksw]

Every year the mule deer creep further and further north and I have even seen a few in those red areas so I imagine it’s only a matter of time till CWD pops in there too

Unfortunately. But that boreal barrier does seem to be significant.

 

[Sask hunter]

For the record I must say I believe in CWD and I have seen the effects. No mature bucks left. 2019 I drew a mulie tag down south and vowed never to go back for them. 4.5 days of dark to dark hunting in wicked cold and snow seeing 60-100 deer a day and over November 11-14 so prime rut and during that time I saw 3 mature Mulies only. Where as growing up would have had my pick of the litter on 180 bucks. But what I know everything we have done in Sask so far on the culling front or drastically increased tags hasn’t worked. Time to try something else

 

[Bonasababy]

"Could anyone provide some documentation as to where CWD began? Please don't interject without factual, provable information."

Get my point?

I am trying my best to keep an open mind. We had a collared deer from South Dakota on my parents place this year. Probably at least 50 miles from South Dakota I think more. I have buddies that are landowners that have good populations of deer on their place if you go 10 miles or less to public, there is nothing. If we are going to nuke herds to save them than North Dakota better be doing it too. We would need 100% buy in from everyone. That isn’t happening and you will not shoot your way out of it unless everyone is on board. You are advocating for nuking the public or accessible land and that is already happening here. Aerial gunning without regard to land ownership is the only way to prevent cwd spread in my neck of the woods. Might be a hard sell with our populations in the crapper.

I don't think we were on the leading edge but the process we have used works well with new infection discoveries.

1) Broadly sample most of the state occasionally to a level sufficient to show baseline incidence (not sure many states do this)
2) Actively encourage reporting of sick looking deer, find them kill them and sample them
3) When a positive deer is found--depending on thoughts from baseline info in #1, consider sending in sharpshooters and/or authorizing landowners to shoot a number of deer for sampling in a hurry
4) set up a disease management area around the location of the finding, increase bag limits, and require hunters to bring in harvested deer for sampling
5) Monitor the results of #3 and #4 and if no additional positive deer are found go back to normal deer management
6) If additional positives are found keep sampling and keep more aggressive bag limits/mandates for testing going

It's more involved than that but those are the basics. Doing this we have been able to release hunters and fall back on normal management regimes. Any depression in deer numbers as a result have recovered within a few years.

Note the Bovine TB response mentioned earlier in the thread. For that, we didn't feel like we could eradicate the deer but we wanted to try. After we found no additional positive deer after some years of testing the herd in that area recovered within a few years.

That's the likely result anywhere aggressive harvest measures are tried. The only places I might worry more about that is where the population is low to start and there are other factors that can depress or keep a population suppressed in play

 

[brocksw]

Ya but why get rid of baiting when they naturally herd up every winter anyways. Just seems unnecessary attack on hunters 6-12 deer in a bit is a drop in the hat compared to 50-100 that are on some spilled grain or kicked a grain bag open

I think it depends on the herding. I would concede that there will be some natural winter herding that leads to natural transmission. No doubt. I don’t disagree with you one bit. Some years it will be worse than others, sure. But let’s think about that.

Winter herding takes place for a couple months out of the year. Some years less, some years maybe a little more. We get bad winters in ND, but this year was mild and we had significantly less herding by comparison. But baiting and feeding significantly increases that similar concept. Instead of just gathering for a couple month in the heart of winter, they’re coming into contact with deer for a significantly longer portion of the year, sometimes the entire year.

And it’s not a forgone conclusion that winter herding equates to deer piling into and eating/shitting/pissing on the same tiny area.

Big herds of deer eating in a snow covered field is drastically different than a 1000 lbs of corn dumped into a pile or 5 gallon bucket of corn dumped on the same spot every day for an entire summer and fall. Deer getting into hay bales I would argue is still drastically different than a single source that keeps getting replenished over and over again, literally having deer lick and ingest material from the same identical spot.

This

Or this

Is not the same as this.

 

[Bonasababy]

I appreciate all the information you've shared in this thread and others. But, this comment is by far my favorite. States (WI) being the primary example ruined the publics trust with the way they handled CWD.

This has caused the "inconsistencies" in management. They so poisoned the publics trust in them that they have been fighting an up hill battle to earn back trust in whatever treatment plan they come up with.

Still new to this board so not sure I want to get into an argument but I can't let this one pass.

As you are dead wrong!

Wisconsin biologists had their hands tied behind their back and worse. They had and still are not allowed to manage the situation as they would have wished.

If you live in WI this should not be news to you--Scott Walker and his ilk got it rolling and inserted their politics into the situation which still exists (thankfully to a lesser extent) today.

How can they "poison the publics trust in them" when they weren't allowed to do what they wanted in the first place, and those few that dared to speak out had their jobs threatened?

There's a lot of confirmation bias in your state going on which is far from fair or accurate, IMO. This shouldn't be a political issue--don't fall into the trap that it is, it's easy to do without even knowing it.

Also, do you support banning baiting which is so prevalent in WI and makes it MUCH harder to control disease issues? If not, it's worth looking in a mirror for some of the problem.

 

[Bonasababy]

Yup.

Nope--see my reply.

 

[brocksw]

This is just a few photos of the same man placed mineral lick being visited over and over and over and over by wintering deer.

If there’s a positive deer visiting that site and you don’t that’s increasing disease exposure and transmission, you’re outside your mind.

 

[Sask hunter]

I think it depends on the herding. I would concede that there will be some natural winter herding that leads to natural transmission. No doubt. I don’t disagree with you one bit. Some years it will be worse than others, sure. But let’s think about that.

Winter herding takes place for a couple months out of the year. Some years less, some years maybe a little more. We get bad winters in ND, but this year was mild and we had significantly less herding by comparison. But baiting and feeding significantly increases that similar concept. Instead of just gathering for a couple month in the heart of winter, they’re coming into contact with deer for a significantly longer portion of the year, sometimes the entire year.

And it’s not a forgone conclusion that winter herding equates to deer piling into and eating/shitting/pissing on the same tiny area.

Big herds of deer eating in a snow covered field is drastically different than a 1000 lbs of corn dumped into a pile or 5 gallon bucket of corn dumped on the same spot every day for an entire summer and fall. Deer getting into hay bales I would argue is still drastically different than a single source that keeps getting replenished over and over again, literally having deer lick and ingest material from the same identical spot.

This
View attachment 331250
Or this
View attachment 331251
Is not the same as this.
View attachment 331252

Yes but when deer herd up here it’s often on a hay stack or spilled grain or a grain bag they kicked open so it is a very very big bait pile and we have deer herd up for 4-5 months every winter. Even this past winter which was super easy in Sask there was still beat down deer trails to spilled grain left in the field. I know most places deer don’t herd up like we get in Sask or for nearly as long but to place all the blame on bait when there is evidence it’s transferred through licking branches and some event say through coyote shit. Plus they can lick in the same salt block out for cattle and pass it that way. We can’t get farmers to get rid of salt blocks for cattle or farmers not to spill grain or leave grain bags or bails out all winter so why punish hunters

 

[brocksw]

But what I know everything we have done in Sask so far on the culling front or drastically increased tags hasn’t worked.

So what best management practices has Sask tried?

Some ineffective culling 20 years ago and some increased hunting pressure that is FAR below any place in the lower 48 to my understanding.

What else?

Time to try something else

It’s too late for Sask.

 

[Treeshark]

Also, do you support banning baiting which is so prevalent in WI and makes it MUCH harder to control disease issues?

I am not saying illegal baiting still doesn’t happen all over the place, but it’s prohibited throughout most of the state now.

 

[Weimer]

I am not saying illegal baiting still doesn’t happen all over the place, but it’s prohibited throughout most of the state now.

View attachment 331259

Well then there should be a cwd problem then.

 

[Sask hunter]

So what best management practices has Sask tried?

Some ineffective culling 20 years ago and some increased hunting pressure that is FAR below any place in the lower 48 to my understanding.

What else?


It’s too late for Sask.

I’m not sure what the best practices are as I usually stay out of CWD stuff. I have seen the affects and know there isn’t much we can do besides let Mother Nature run and hopefully fix stuff. Overall Sask deer densities are a drop in the bucket to deer densities in the states. They aren’t going to let us exterminate mule deer. But I’m sure one of the practices is ban baiting. Which like I said before is dumb cause the deer herd up naturally here for 4-5 months in herds bigger then any bait ever would have. And Sask is still culling deer they just don’t call it that anymore. Instead they just tripled deer tags in areas. Alberta has CWD and Manitoba is getting it. Neither Alberta or Manitoba you can bait. Manitoba just recently started getting mule deer I think there first mule deer season was 1-2 years ago and right around the same time is when they had there first CWD case which prompted helicopter culling there.

 

[brocksw]

Yes but when deer herd up here it’s often on a hay stack or spilled grain or a grain bag they kicked open so it is a very very big bait pile and we have deer herd up for 4-5 months every winter. Even this past winter which was super easy in Sask there was still beat down deer trails to spilled grain left in the field.

ND game and fish spends hundreds of thousands of dollars some years on depredation programs to prevent deer from getting clustered up in hay yards and keep them away from silage piles as much as possible.

But I don’t think that picture really makes your point. Like I said, there will be some natural exposure but undoubtedly unnatural settings like bait piles are worse. These are things we can do to stop unnatural gatherings. Can’t stop them all, but we can stop a lot of them. This is not really debatable. How many thousands of bait piles could be removed from the landscape if Sask government wouldve had the balls to do it?

I know most places deer don’t herd up like we get in Sask or for nearly as long but to place all the blame on bait when there is evidence it’s transferred through licking branches and some event say through coyote shit.

There’s evidence that that prions get deposited in branches and can be found in coyote poop. But a tree branch is not a bait pile and I don’t know many deer going around eating buckets full of coyote poop.

Plus they can lick in the same salt block out for cattle and pass it that way. We can’t get farmers to get rid of salt blocks for cattle or farmers not to spill grain or leave grain bags or bails out all winter so why punish hunters

I think yours is the most common response I see from hunters who hunt over bait. A long winded justification as to how they’re a victim and this is punishing hunters, and by hunters they actually just mean themselves. I find that to be an incredibly selfish perspective.

The mental masturbation that some folks will put in to justify this is kind of silliness. The folks that hunt over bait overwhelmingly are the only ones that take this stance, it’s pretty obvious to the rest of us what’s going on. Like I said, even to the most casual observer.

 

[Weimer]

This is just a few photos of the same man placed mineral lick being visited over and over and over and over by wintering deer.

If there’s a positive deer visiting that site and you don’t that’s increasing disease exposure and transmission, you’re outside your mind.

View attachment 331255
View attachment 331256
View attachment 331257

Do deer hit natural mineral sites less?

 

[brocksw]

I’m not sure what the best practices are as I usually stay out of CWD stuff. I have seen the affects and know there isn’t much we can do besides let Mother Nature run and hopefully fix stuff. Overall Sask deer densities are a drop in the bucket to deer densities in the states. They aren’t going to let us exterminate mule deer. But I’m sure one of the practices is ban baiting. Which like I said before is dumb cause the deer herd up naturally here for 4-5 months in herds bigger then any bait ever would have. And Sask is still culling deer they just don’t call it that anymore. Instead they just tripled deer tags in areas. Alberta has CWD and Manitoba is getting it. Neither Alberta or Manitoba you can bait. Manitoba just recently started getting mule deer I think there first mule deer season was 1-2 years ago and right around the same time is when they had there first CWD case which prompted helicopter culling there.

Precisely. That’s all you guys have done to my knowledge. Some outdated culling a long time ago and some slight increases to hunter harvest (again not much).

No carcass transportation restrictions.
No baiting restrictions.
Basically zero, significant, long term consistent commitment, or effort to combat the disease beyond the original culling.

Things that most of the other places do.