Pelican
Well-known member
That sounds like a good idea. I would maybe feel differently about them in CO if we weren’t annually smothered by NR elk hunters.
Crossbows and trapping, again
- Thread starter Oak
- Start date
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
Data for your statement
though instead of smothered, I would say in CO we generously share our opportunity. CO provides 50% of all NR elk hunting opportunity in the United States.
OTC archery CO
Pelican
Well-known member
Looks like we have a substantial lead on 2nd place MT, so we can continue to not allow cross bows, unless we want to shoot for 60%. WE’RE #1!Data for your statement
View attachment 139540
OTC archery CO
View attachment 139541
Hookedonelk
New member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2019
- Messages
- 29
In Wisconsin, they opened up crossbow to anyone, they also opened up hunting to any age. That being said there are kids that shouldn’t hold a weapon when they are 16, let alone 7!!!! Last year on opening day of bow season, my 7 year old daughter shot a 6 pt out of a double ladder stand, with me sitting next to her and I got it all on video! It was the greatest hunt I have ever been on and both her and I will likely remember it forever! I could have taken that crossbow that I bought, and hunted with it the next night, I did not, I took my compound. Crossbows are either loved by hunters or hated, there is no in between. I love crossbows because it allowed me to introduce my daughter into hunting 5 years earlier then I was able to be introduced. I will not use one myself, until I am unable to draw my compound back, and when she is able to shoot accurately with 40 lb she will use a compound also. In Wisconsin everyone talks about the amount of bucks harvested increased because of crossbows. I agree they have gone up, but how many bucks have been wounded in years past by archery hunters with a compound that died. And some probably wounded more than one in some years. I am a believer in getting more people involved in hunting and especially at a young age! If that means using crossbows, so be it. I don’t care if they legalize rifle year round, I am still gonna put in the time and I am gonna get one almost every year with my compound, and if I don’t, but hear a story about a young kid shooting their first deer with a crossbow, great, maybe that kid will grow up and be on some board that keeps hunting around and pushes for hunting rights. And I will answer the post from whoever is gonna say something about she is to young to handle a weapon, she shot a doe during gun season with a .223 from 90 yards and the doe didn’t take a step, all I did was held the shooting stick until she set the gun on it, then it was all her!!!!
JM77
Well-known member
The beauty of the way it's done in Wyoming, is that every kill in archery, by recurve, compound or crossbow, means one less hunter in rifle season. Of course 5 areas statewide have a "choose your weapon" status which I am totally against. Our season structure is what makes our hunting great here.
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
WY season structure is great and WY hunt quality is reportedly very good. The structure is possible because of the limited participation numbers. For CO to have proportionally the same number of hunters in the field per elk that WY does CO would need to cut 30K NR elk hunters. (Assuming managers/biologists/weather/predators etc are all equally obviously they aren’t)
Essentially you would explode the point creep in CO/MT/WY by doing so.
elkduds
Well-known member
I have a medical permit for Xbow during archery for CO. Before that I hunted w compound and recurve. My Xbow is light and relatively narrow, it is still an unmitigated bitch to carry in the places I hunt elk. I get one shot that is loud, the recocking process looks like a 30 second antler dance. Legal sights for xbows during archery are open sights, or unmagnified red dot or crosshairs, not a significant improvement over bow sights. My range is 50 yards w those sights, comparable to skilled archers. I'd rather have a healthy shoulder and hunt w a bow.
However, I can still hunt Sept. OTC because of my Xbow permit, that is the point of the exercise for me. Having done it, I can imagine the limitations that OTC hordes would encounter. most probably staying close to roads and atv trails. In CO there is not an age that automatically allows use of xbows during archery season; you can only do so w a disability permit your Dr. sends to CPW. I am opposed to any expansion of xbow use in CO, having been on both sides of the coin. I agree w those who have suggested it would bring more crowds to OTC archery units at a time when the trend needs to be less OTC. IMO OTC archery elk is a Ponzi scheme for most hunters. Serious hunters are out the 1st half of the month. By the time the "hunt the rut" crowd arrives, many elk have crossed to the sanctuary of private lands, leaving the crowd hiking w bows.
The most politically influential sportspersons' group in CO is the CO Bowhunters' Assoc, they will fight to the death to prohibit widespread xbow use during CO archery season. Bless their little hearts.
However, I can still hunt Sept. OTC because of my Xbow permit, that is the point of the exercise for me. Having done it, I can imagine the limitations that OTC hordes would encounter. most probably staying close to roads and atv trails. In CO there is not an age that automatically allows use of xbows during archery season; you can only do so w a disability permit your Dr. sends to CPW. I am opposed to any expansion of xbow use in CO, having been on both sides of the coin. I agree w those who have suggested it would bring more crowds to OTC archery units at a time when the trend needs to be less OTC. IMO OTC archery elk is a Ponzi scheme for most hunters. Serious hunters are out the 1st half of the month. By the time the "hunt the rut" crowd arrives, many elk have crossed to the sanctuary of private lands, leaving the crowd hiking w bows.
The most politically influential sportspersons' group in CO is the CO Bowhunters' Assoc, they will fight to the death to prohibit widespread xbow use during CO archery season. Bless their little hearts.
Buffs35
Well-known member
Does creedmor make a crossbow? Asking for a friend.
RaiderRich
Well-known member
NY started to allow crossbow use after I moved from the state. If I understand NY's regulations correctly it is not a specific season unto itself but allowed during the last two weeks of archery season, or something to that notion. NY archery season is like 5 or 6 weeks long. I personally have no objection to crossbows being used for deer hunting. I have not done enough research in regards to elk sized game and personally I wouldn't bow hunt elk myself. Just my preference. I do take a little bit of an issue with compound bow archers saying the use of a crossbow takes away from the purity of hunting with a bow. Traditional longbow archers can make more of a valid argument in my eyes in regards to the purity of the hunt. Me, when I used to bow hunt, I used compound bows and while I never tried crossbow hunting I had considered it.
runningmt
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2018
- Messages
- 717
If our aim is to make it as effortless as possible for anyone to kill everything on the landscape, why are we still messing around with lead, gunpowder, broadheads and arrows. We should all be advocating for lasers! No drop at any range, no need for a range finder, no jumping the string, no recoil, no lead poisoning, no thought or effort whatsoever. Hell, with the right optics, we wouldn’t even have to leave our houses!!! Any dipshit could kill anything he wanted from anywhere!! Heck, parts would even be cooked in the process!
Not a fan of the crossrifle if you’re curious.
Not a fan of the crossrifle if you’re curious.
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VAspeedgoat
Well-known member
No matter what side of the fence you're on, this is always the most useless and stupid thread topic.
DouglasR
Well-known member
I 100% support crossbow use for people with underlying medical conditions, but does anyone else feel like TJ Dillashaw is an even bigger cheater than he already was for having used one last archery season?
Here’s a pic for your kuiu starter pack
tsnow
Here’s a pic for your kuiu starter pack
tsnow
If your worried about kids and old people afield with crossbows you have bigger issues and might as well stay home and watch youtube.
SFC B
Well-known member
I have never hunted archery and started hunting late in life (AOH) at 33. I have hunted with a rifle and a shotgun in the south, midwest and west. During the entire time I have hunted I have had to listen to the argument (ESPECIALLY in IN) surrounding crossbow usage. For my purposes I will except the disability and old age accommodations (which I think almost all are good with). These are what seem to be the issues to me (and I have NO personal dog in this fight)
1) Many (not all) archery hunters seem to have serious superiority complexes. Archers are "better, more serious" hunters than rifle/ML hunters......then it is recurve hunters better than compound.....then it is primitive better than recurve.....then personally built bow better than "store bought" etc. ALL of them seem to get a case of the a$$ about crossbows and think they shouldn't be included in archery at all (see the "crossrifle" comment above). These attitudes lead to the 2nd issue....
2) Since these archery hunters feel they are "better, more serious" they feel entitled to much longer seasons which nearly always give them the opportunity to hunt the rut (where most states don't do that for other means of taking) and, the ugly unsaid undercurrent, more opportunity at TROPHY ANIMALS.
If we are worried about too many animals being taken why not simply shorten the season and limit tags like the other means of take? If archery hunters do it for the "additional challenge" why would you care how someone else hunts? If you are hunting "for meat" how about only FEMALE tags being OTC? All of these (and I am sure there are other similar approaches) would address concerns while you could still expand hunting opportunity with crossbows. Again, I have no dog in the fight other than hoping for the hunting community to be MORE united and inclusive instead of being factional and spiteful.
1) Many (not all) archery hunters seem to have serious superiority complexes. Archers are "better, more serious" hunters than rifle/ML hunters......then it is recurve hunters better than compound.....then it is primitive better than recurve.....then personally built bow better than "store bought" etc. ALL of them seem to get a case of the a$$ about crossbows and think they shouldn't be included in archery at all (see the "crossrifle" comment above). These attitudes lead to the 2nd issue....
2) Since these archery hunters feel they are "better, more serious" they feel entitled to much longer seasons which nearly always give them the opportunity to hunt the rut (where most states don't do that for other means of taking) and, the ugly unsaid undercurrent, more opportunity at TROPHY ANIMALS.
If we are worried about too many animals being taken why not simply shorten the season and limit tags like the other means of take? If archery hunters do it for the "additional challenge" why would you care how someone else hunts? If you are hunting "for meat" how about only FEMALE tags being OTC? All of these (and I am sure there are other similar approaches) would address concerns while you could still expand hunting opportunity with crossbows. Again, I have no dog in the fight other than hoping for the hunting community to be MORE united and inclusive instead of being factional and spiteful.
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
@SFC B
I have never hunted archery and started hunting late in life (AOH) at 33. I have hunted with a rifle and a shotgun in the south, midwest and west. During the entire time I have hunted I have had to listen to the argument (ESPECIALLY in IN) surrounding crossbow usage. For my purposes I will except the disability and old age accommodations (which I think almost all are good with). These are what seem to be the issues to me (and I have NO personal dog in this fight)
Whitetail in IN on mostly private is a different situation than elk on public land in CO
1) Many (not all) archery hunters seem to have serious superiority complexes. Archers are "better, more serious" hunters than rifle/ML hunters......then it is recurve hunters better than compound.....then it is primitive better than recurve.....then personally built bow better than "store bought" etc. ALL of them seem to get a case of the a$$ about crossbows and think they shouldn't be included in archery at all (see the "crossrifle" comment above). These attitudes lead to the 2nd issue....
While this may be true it has nothing to do with the issue of crossbows in OTC season in CO. On a personal level some people may not want crossbows in CO for this reason, on a resource level this reasoning is irrelevant.
2) Since these archery hunters feel they are "better, more serious" they feel entitled to much longer seasons which nearly always give them the opportunity to hunt the rut (where most states don't do that for other means of taking) and, the ugly unsaid undercurrent, more opportunity at TROPHY ANIMALS.
Archery for elk typically has lower harvest rates, which allows for long seasons and hunting in the rut, that's the bottom line of management. Lower the success rates and you can increase other variables. MT, UT, CO, off the top of my head all allow you to hunt the rut with a rifle in specific units where management goals + harvest rates allow it. (EE010E1R in CO, back country units in Mt, or EB3045 in Utah)
If we are worried about too many animals being taken why not simply shorten the season and limit tags like the other means of take?
CO already has the some of the shortest hunting seasons in the west, and bifurcating the archery season has already been proposed regardless of the crossbow issue, as OTC archery crowding has become an issue. Further biologist have noted that increased human activity hunting and non-consumptive disturbs elk enough in the rut to be of concern. That is one reason the SW CO units went fully limited for archery.
Too many humans in the woods in Sept, period.
If archery hunters do it for the "additional challenge" why would you care how someone else hunts? If you are hunting "for meat" how about only FEMALE tags being OTC?
PG. 37 of the big game brochure, Colorado has OTC cow elk archery tags. Though in many units this is problematic, elk aren't whitetails. Some of are herds are in decline killing more cows will destroy the resource. Cow quotas in many units have been dramatically reduced or even removed.
Indiana has 680,000 whitetails. CO, WY,MT, ID, and WA combined have that many elk. Apples to Oranges in terms of management.
All of these (and I am sure there are other similar approaches) would address concerns while you could still expand hunting opportunity with crossbows. Again, I have no dog in the fight other than hoping for the hunting community to be MORE united and inclusive instead of being factional and spiteful.
You can already hunt CO with a crossbow, during the rifle season? Crossbow hunters aren't excluded in CO, you just can't use them in the archery season. Further for whatever reason you can't hunt with a bow you can get a muzzy tag, and hunt during the same time period. I would support crossbows during the muzzy season as they tags are fully limited, just not in the OTC seasons.
In my mind this discussion has nothing to do with being inclusive but rather has to do with a single interest group being selfish. There are numerous opportunities for anyone who wants to hunt in CO. Someone with a disability who want's to hunt the rut can already get a crossbow permit, a kid or older individual can already hunt the rut with a muzzy, or in some units with a rifle. If you really just like crossbows, take one out during 1st rifle, the elk are still bugling and the rut.
The job of CPW is to manage wildlife, it's not to placate hunters by making sure everyone gets to hunt elk during their favorite season with their favorite weapon.
I've hunted CO archery, rifle, and muzzy.
-----------------------------------------------
Food for thought with SW CO as an example. Those units just went fully limited for archery.
Let's look at 751
2006 - 449 total elk killed
1407 total Rifle hunters, 28% success rate, 395 elk killed
257 Archery hunters, 14% success rate, 35 elk
2019 - 222 total elk killed
973 total Rifle hunters, 16% success rate, 153 elk killed
423 Archery hunters, 13% success rate, 57 elk killed
So in this unit the total harvest declined by 1/2, rifle success rates and number of hunters cratered, yet archery harvests and hunter numbers doubled, and success rates stayed the same.
This is a pretty common theme throughout CO, across the board rifle seasons have fewer hunters and archery seasons have doubled or more. Unit 53 went from 406 hunters in 2005 to 1045 in 2019.
Over this same time period 2006-2019, Colorado added 1 million residents 20% growth. Aug-Sept is the nicest time to be in the woods. Think about how many more bikers, hikes, etc we are adding into elk habitat each fall.
Why would we add more people into the mix? Why put further pressure on a strained resource.
I have never hunted archery and started hunting late in life (AOH) at 33. I have hunted with a rifle and a shotgun in the south, midwest and west. During the entire time I have hunted I have had to listen to the argument (ESPECIALLY in IN) surrounding crossbow usage. For my purposes I will except the disability and old age accommodations (which I think almost all are good with). These are what seem to be the issues to me (and I have NO personal dog in this fight)
Whitetail in IN on mostly private is a different situation than elk on public land in CO
1) Many (not all) archery hunters seem to have serious superiority complexes. Archers are "better, more serious" hunters than rifle/ML hunters......then it is recurve hunters better than compound.....then it is primitive better than recurve.....then personally built bow better than "store bought" etc. ALL of them seem to get a case of the a$$ about crossbows and think they shouldn't be included in archery at all (see the "crossrifle" comment above). These attitudes lead to the 2nd issue....
While this may be true it has nothing to do with the issue of crossbows in OTC season in CO. On a personal level some people may not want crossbows in CO for this reason, on a resource level this reasoning is irrelevant.
2) Since these archery hunters feel they are "better, more serious" they feel entitled to much longer seasons which nearly always give them the opportunity to hunt the rut (where most states don't do that for other means of taking) and, the ugly unsaid undercurrent, more opportunity at TROPHY ANIMALS.
Archery for elk typically has lower harvest rates, which allows for long seasons and hunting in the rut, that's the bottom line of management. Lower the success rates and you can increase other variables. MT, UT, CO, off the top of my head all allow you to hunt the rut with a rifle in specific units where management goals + harvest rates allow it. (EE010E1R in CO, back country units in Mt, or EB3045 in Utah)
If we are worried about too many animals being taken why not simply shorten the season and limit tags like the other means of take?
CO already has the some of the shortest hunting seasons in the west, and bifurcating the archery season has already been proposed regardless of the crossbow issue, as OTC archery crowding has become an issue. Further biologist have noted that increased human activity hunting and non-consumptive disturbs elk enough in the rut to be of concern. That is one reason the SW CO units went fully limited for archery.
Too many humans in the woods in Sept, period.
If archery hunters do it for the "additional challenge" why would you care how someone else hunts? If you are hunting "for meat" how about only FEMALE tags being OTC?
PG. 37 of the big game brochure, Colorado has OTC cow elk archery tags. Though in many units this is problematic, elk aren't whitetails. Some of are herds are in decline killing more cows will destroy the resource. Cow quotas in many units have been dramatically reduced or even removed.
Indiana has 680,000 whitetails. CO, WY,MT, ID, and WA combined have that many elk. Apples to Oranges in terms of management.
All of these (and I am sure there are other similar approaches) would address concerns while you could still expand hunting opportunity with crossbows. Again, I have no dog in the fight other than hoping for the hunting community to be MORE united and inclusive instead of being factional and spiteful.
You can already hunt CO with a crossbow, during the rifle season? Crossbow hunters aren't excluded in CO, you just can't use them in the archery season. Further for whatever reason you can't hunt with a bow you can get a muzzy tag, and hunt during the same time period. I would support crossbows during the muzzy season as they tags are fully limited, just not in the OTC seasons.
In my mind this discussion has nothing to do with being inclusive but rather has to do with a single interest group being selfish. There are numerous opportunities for anyone who wants to hunt in CO. Someone with a disability who want's to hunt the rut can already get a crossbow permit, a kid or older individual can already hunt the rut with a muzzy, or in some units with a rifle. If you really just like crossbows, take one out during 1st rifle, the elk are still bugling and the rut.
The job of CPW is to manage wildlife, it's not to placate hunters by making sure everyone gets to hunt elk during their favorite season with their favorite weapon.
I've hunted CO archery, rifle, and muzzy.
-----------------------------------------------
Food for thought with SW CO as an example. Those units just went fully limited for archery.
Let's look at 751
2006 - 449 total elk killed
1407 total Rifle hunters, 28% success rate, 395 elk killed
257 Archery hunters, 14% success rate, 35 elk
2019 - 222 total elk killed
973 total Rifle hunters, 16% success rate, 153 elk killed
423 Archery hunters, 13% success rate, 57 elk killed
So in this unit the total harvest declined by 1/2, rifle success rates and number of hunters cratered, yet archery harvests and hunter numbers doubled, and success rates stayed the same.
This is a pretty common theme throughout CO, across the board rifle seasons have fewer hunters and archery seasons have doubled or more. Unit 53 went from 406 hunters in 2005 to 1045 in 2019.
Over this same time period 2006-2019, Colorado added 1 million residents 20% growth. Aug-Sept is the nicest time to be in the woods. Think about how many more bikers, hikes, etc we are adding into elk habitat each fall.
Why would we add more people into the mix? Why put further pressure on a strained resource.
Why introduce wolves and pressure a strained resource????
I thought a goal was to introduce more people to the sport of hunting?
my tldr interpretative summary of wllms post, which i agree with is:
you simply can't add crossbows to an unlimited over-the-county archery tag that is good for nearly the entire state and is already an overcrowded season. limit it and cut the number of hunters in half? no problem, add cross bows
really the only logical argument for not adding crossbows onto colorado's otc archery tag is that the jump in numbers and the nearly guaranteed jump in success rates is not sustainable for the elk herds and will force cpw's hand on further limiting opportunity in the state. but further limiting opportunity is likely a foregone conclusion for our future anyway
correct me if i'm wrong on my interpretation and summar and i'll apologize, but i feel it should be reiterated
you simply can't add crossbows to an unlimited over-the-county archery tag that is good for nearly the entire state and is already an overcrowded season. limit it and cut the number of hunters in half? no problem, add cross bows
really the only logical argument for not adding crossbows onto colorado's otc archery tag is that the jump in numbers and the nearly guaranteed jump in success rates is not sustainable for the elk herds and will force cpw's hand on further limiting opportunity in the state. but further limiting opportunity is likely a foregone conclusion for our future anyway
correct me if i'm wrong on my interpretation and summar and i'll apologize, but i feel it should be reiterated
redhub1
Member
I'm just wondering what is your reasoning? Why are you against crossbows? Just curious.
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
My argument is even more simple, just adding more hunters into OTC Archery season, even if there is no increase in success rates due to different tackle, is problematic.
redhub1
Member
The population of the U.S. continually rises and conversely the number of hunters continues to decline as a percentage of that population. Since the money for conservation, habitat, etc. has to come from the people participating in hunting, i.e. license and tag sales, and Pittman-Robinson monies, etc. wouldn't it follow that someone who values conservation and hunting should be also concerned about the downward trend of hunting participation? Yet, it seems that the overwhelming majority of hunters constantly complain about "too many hunters in the woods," and a fair amount of hunters also want hunting to be more difficult, more challenging, (can't use a crossbow) etc. Ask a hunter to take you out and show you the ropes and very few will take you up on it for fear of divulging "their honey holes" as if the public land belongs to them alone. Given these views and the trends of less people going outside, does anyone fear for the future of hunting? It is all well and good that, for those in the fields now, there should be less hunters out there, but what about the future of hunting? Isn't this a selfish point of view?
