elkduds
Well-known member
John Denver thought so.
[video=youtube;7aREZFsdh-8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aREZFsdh-8[/video]
Tracey sings it better.
Crazy Mountain Public Access
- Thread starter katqanna
- Start date
- Status
John Denver thought so.
[video=youtube;7aREZFsdh-8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aREZFsdh-8[/video]
Tracey sings it better.
RobG
Well-known member
I don't want to get into the details, but there are a lot of positive things being tossed around to improve access on the west, south, and east side of the Crazies. Yes, we need to be prepared to litigate until things are signed, but the proposals I have seen are better than anything we could obtain by litigation, even before you consider the cost and time of lawsuits.
katqanna
Well-known member
Rob, I see that you edited your statement of me, my "continual undermining" of your collaboration, replacing it with "Let's try to make this work". And while composing this rebuttal, you have deleted your second post to me, "By the way, I hope you will respect the fact that the ideas presented at the meeting were very preliminary and not meant to be spread all over the public domain. Please try to respect the people and the process." I almost got that first screen shot in time, didn't because I was pulling up a picture of your" cow pasture" that I took, because I have been there, but I did see your comment. So I am now laying some of my cards on the table about your ongoing bs, especially in light of the fact, when asked by someone about why you were there, you stated you represented the hunters, using their contributions as leverage for your raison d'être in the Crazy Mountains issues.
Well, the hunters, some of which contributed to your defense fund for your legal case, hunters from this forum, just might like to know what you have actually been up to these days since settling your trespass case.
A case, btw, that should have been won, but seeing as you pissed off other attorneys, you had a hard time finding one to take you, so you settled on one you weren't thrilled with, then spoke about reporting him to the Bar, when you found out how badly this was handled. Remember on the way up to your omnibus hearing when I mentioned to your legal council in the car, that this should be an easy case to win, seeing as you made every good faith effort not to knowingly commit trespass, she stated that didn't matter. I mentioned the MCA relating to Criminal Trespass, that was part of the code, she said it wasn't. So when I got home, I emailed you MCA 45-6-203. Criminal trespass to property. (1) Except as provided in 15-7-139, 70-16-111, and 76-13-116, a person commits the offense of criminal trespass to property if the person knowingly: (b) enters or remains unlawfully in or upon the premises of another." I suggested you get another attorney, again, and you stated you didn't have any other choice. Then, after their settlement offer to the Stockgrowers and Farm Bureau, you settled by choosing to pay the $500 to the Sweet Grass Community Foundation, that you didn't look into, which turns out that Page Dringman is the Treasurer of. I got a copy of your case file recently from the Sweet Grass County Courthouse, when I told you the subpoenas to the FS and FWP were missing from the file, you stated you had still not received it from your attorney after requesting it several times. You couldn't even get your case file from him and yet, you are all over the Crazy Mountains negotiations and have the "hunters" backs concerning access.
My regret is spending so much time gathering documents for your defense, sharing my FOIA docs, offering and setting up a webpage for your legal defense fund, to hear you blame everyone, except yourself.
So to recap some of your statements of late and how you are representing the hunters:
Now I will briefly address this issue and your quote so that the hunters can see how much you have their back and are representing them with all your research and their dollars.
1. You speculate a lawsuit would cost a million dollars and take ten years, based on what? All your legal experience? Or is this simply fearmongering to the public to try and sway them to what you feel would be a quick fix?
2. This Porcupine Lowline Trail system, including Trail #267, was on the 1937 FS map and existed prior to that. The Zimmermans bought their land, with this public trail on it in the 1950s.
3. Around 2002 a hunt club was started in that area and the Zimmermans began aggressively blocking public access with locked gates and signage placed by the landowners and Dave Laubach, referred to as the nearby landowner and outfitter of the hunt club.
4. When the 2 District Rangers repeatedly notified of the landowners of the illegality of their signs (some of which were placed over trail tree blazes) and the blockages, requesting they remove them, they refused.
5. Each time the FS stated they would be doing trail maintenance to replace the destroyed and removed FS signs, and to post trail marker wooden posts to help prevent unintentional trespass on their private land, the landowners replied if the FS did so, they would be promptly removed.
6. A number of times the Zimmermans have brought up a trail relocation proposal, generally after FS action to file an SOI or bring in other stakeholders to strengthen a possible FS legal case, but no formal proposal was ever filed with the FS. Each time he wanted FS Trail # 267 obliterated.
7. A southern Park County Outfitting Company, O Bar Lazy E Outfitters, just bought the FS outfitting permit from the previous outfitter, which includes the southern half of the Porcupine Lowline Trail #267, including the trail at the Zimmerman's two most southern parcels. Rob, you should warn them how bad this area is with the cow pasture.
8. FWP elk counts in that area this last year were group size 151-303 elk. And elk have been spotted along this trail.
9. At the very least, on the west side, we have access all the way into FS, due to fuel tax roads, which require "roads open to public travel", by trail #267.
10. Having read through 15 years of FS communications with the Zimmerman and tons of documents including maintenance records, public complaints about obstruction, user statements and historical data, there is more here than the Wonder Ranch Indian Creek Trail case (filed Aug. 2014, concluded Oct. 2016, not 10 years by my math) and that was won.
Here is a picture of your "cow Pasture".
And while you say, "I don't want to get into the details," surely you would not keep all your glorious details of this "damn good proposal" from those you are claiming to represent?
I am sure that when you regale them with your details, they will fall over themselves in submitting their endorsements to the FS, thanking them for not going to court over this trail, so that they could enjoy this proposed trail so much more, they and their future generations.
Well, the hunters, some of which contributed to your defense fund for your legal case, hunters from this forum, just might like to know what you have actually been up to these days since settling your trespass case.
A case, btw, that should have been won, but seeing as you pissed off other attorneys, you had a hard time finding one to take you, so you settled on one you weren't thrilled with, then spoke about reporting him to the Bar, when you found out how badly this was handled. Remember on the way up to your omnibus hearing when I mentioned to your legal council in the car, that this should be an easy case to win, seeing as you made every good faith effort not to knowingly commit trespass, she stated that didn't matter. I mentioned the MCA relating to Criminal Trespass, that was part of the code, she said it wasn't. So when I got home, I emailed you MCA 45-6-203. Criminal trespass to property. (1) Except as provided in 15-7-139, 70-16-111, and 76-13-116, a person commits the offense of criminal trespass to property if the person knowingly: (b) enters or remains unlawfully in or upon the premises of another." I suggested you get another attorney, again, and you stated you didn't have any other choice. Then, after their settlement offer to the Stockgrowers and Farm Bureau, you settled by choosing to pay the $500 to the Sweet Grass Community Foundation, that you didn't look into, which turns out that Page Dringman is the Treasurer of. I got a copy of your case file recently from the Sweet Grass County Courthouse, when I told you the subpoenas to the FS and FWP were missing from the file, you stated you had still not received it from your attorney after requesting it several times. You couldn't even get your case file from him and yet, you are all over the Crazy Mountains negotiations and have the "hunters" backs concerning access.
My regret is spending so much time gathering documents for your defense, sharing my FOIA docs, offering and setting up a webpage for your legal defense fund, to hear you blame everyone, except yourself.
So to recap some of your statements of late and how you are representing the hunters:
- On July 21, 2017 you sent a threatening letter to PLWA, "Imagine my surprise when I was catching up on my mail and found a PLWA letter asking for money to help their engagement in the Crazy Mountain access fight. Please tell me EXACTLY what this engagement entails. Be specific, write it down (don't call), and email it to me by Tuesday. On Wednesday I will be sending a status updtate to my contributors list and will include a warning for them to beware of groups trying to piggyback on the issue, naming names if necessary."
- When PLWA did send out a newsletter on the Crazy Mountains, you followed up on your threat, sending a public letter on 8/24/2017, "warning" your contributors against PLWA. "On that note, I really don’t like what I’m forced to say next. PLWA sent out an email a couple weeks ago asking for money because they were “engaged” in the Crazy Mountain access issue. The truth is, I’ve been trying to get them engaged for a year now, and they’ve taken minimal action. They failed to provide even basic advice when I really needed it and we've wasted thousands of dollars because of it. While I fully support their decision not to get involved in my trespass case, they have done little to further the access issue compared to other groups. I asked them how they were engaged and they didn’t provide anything I wasn’t aware of, nor have they committed to action that will require money. I told them if they needed money to fight for Crazy Mountain access commit to a solid plan and I’ll give them thousands of dollars.
I also told them not to do this again or I would publicly call them out. It simply isn’t fair to have them siphon money away from myself and other groups who have been actively engaged in the process.
I don’t know if it was hubris or senility or just telling me to f--- off, but last week they sent another email using the Crazy Mountain access issue to generate donations. I’m offended, and now I have to call them out as I promised them I would. PLWA is a group I had the highest respect for; In fact, I have given them $300 over the last year and a half, more than any other group. I hope they become truly engaged so I can give them thousands of dollars, but until they commit to a firm set of actions I wouldn’t recommend giving them money under the assumption it will be used to help Crazy Mountain access. It makes me sick to have to say that, but that is reality. I’m sorry that I had to air that laundry but it is only fair to the other groups actively engaged in the issue, including myself." You then advocated that people contribute to PCEC. - During our phone conversation, you dissed a number of people involved in fighting for access to the Crazy Mountains, again advocated for PCEC and stated that Alex (Sienkiewicz) got what he deserved and should be fired, blaming him for your citation, stating the same things the landowners have stated about him and saying he came in there with a sledgehammer, starting fires with the landowners.
- When I put out my oped, refuting the Stockgrower and PCEC joint oped, you sent me a derogatory email, on 9/15/2017, filled with an unbelievable amount of misinformation and false accusations. You stated, "I know you like a sledgehammer and shaping the 'court of public opinion,' but fanning flames doesn't help because a negotiated solution is far better than forcing open the trails." Same thing you said about Sienkiewicz. You further wrote, "stop throwing bombs at our own side. (I'm not sure your speculative bombs at the other side are helping either). Your research is very valuable and I try hard to get everyone to support you, but when you throw these bombs it makes it harder and harder to defend you and it hurts your credibility." Then you stopped your $10 a month contributions to EMWH, which I was glad for, because I was about to stop them myself. I don't want your money.
- When neffa3 started a thread on the Outside article, you commented about your case again and stated, "The article made a mistake in saying I paid the fine and it is supposed to be corrected. My attorney and the County Prosecutor came to an agreement that both parties would walk away from the issue if I donated $500 to charity. After some negotiation we came to an agreement on what I thought was an appropriate charity (another story) and the prosecution was dropped. I can't say if that was the best decision in the court of public opinion as people think I caved, but now the money can go to groups like PLWA, MWF, BHA and Kat, who are working to permanently open this trail, rather than lawyers resolving a question that wouldn't open the trial." I will not speak on PLWA's business, but you stopped your $10 a month contribution to EMWH, as mentioned above in Fall 2017. Again, I bit my lip and did not call you out.
Now I will briefly address this issue and your quote so that the hunters can see how much you have their back and are representing them with all your research and their dollars.
1. You speculate a lawsuit would cost a million dollars and take ten years, based on what? All your legal experience? Or is this simply fearmongering to the public to try and sway them to what you feel would be a quick fix?
2. This Porcupine Lowline Trail system, including Trail #267, was on the 1937 FS map and existed prior to that. The Zimmermans bought their land, with this public trail on it in the 1950s.
3. Around 2002 a hunt club was started in that area and the Zimmermans began aggressively blocking public access with locked gates and signage placed by the landowners and Dave Laubach, referred to as the nearby landowner and outfitter of the hunt club.
4. When the 2 District Rangers repeatedly notified of the landowners of the illegality of their signs (some of which were placed over trail tree blazes) and the blockages, requesting they remove them, they refused.
5. Each time the FS stated they would be doing trail maintenance to replace the destroyed and removed FS signs, and to post trail marker wooden posts to help prevent unintentional trespass on their private land, the landowners replied if the FS did so, they would be promptly removed.
6. A number of times the Zimmermans have brought up a trail relocation proposal, generally after FS action to file an SOI or bring in other stakeholders to strengthen a possible FS legal case, but no formal proposal was ever filed with the FS. Each time he wanted FS Trail # 267 obliterated.
7. A southern Park County Outfitting Company, O Bar Lazy E Outfitters, just bought the FS outfitting permit from the previous outfitter, which includes the southern half of the Porcupine Lowline Trail #267, including the trail at the Zimmerman's two most southern parcels. Rob, you should warn them how bad this area is with the cow pasture.
8. FWP elk counts in that area this last year were group size 151-303 elk. And elk have been spotted along this trail.
9. At the very least, on the west side, we have access all the way into FS, due to fuel tax roads, which require "roads open to public travel", by trail #267.
10. Having read through 15 years of FS communications with the Zimmerman and tons of documents including maintenance records, public complaints about obstruction, user statements and historical data, there is more here than the Wonder Ranch Indian Creek Trail case (filed Aug. 2014, concluded Oct. 2016, not 10 years by my math) and that was won.
Here is a picture of your "cow Pasture".
And while you say, "I don't want to get into the details," surely you would not keep all your glorious details of this "damn good proposal" from those you are claiming to represent?
I am sure that when you regale them with your details, they will fall over themselves in submitting their endorsements to the FS, thanking them for not going to court over this trail, so that they could enjoy this proposed trail so much more, they and their future generations.
RobG
Well-known member
That's nice Kat. Yes I toned down my original comments, although it you want the originals out there I won't object.
While I would have done things differently, I stand by my actions since the ticket. You are free to go get one if you think you can do better. I would love to know what I did to piss off all these attorneys that you claim. Most of them shook my hand for taking on Wittich. However, I never found one that said this case would prove anything. I chose the attorney I did because a very respected access lawyer told me to get someone that was familiar with the prosecutor.
I'm comfortable with my past actions, however regarding your accusation about not using the money to help groups including yours, I take that seriously. I did not stop donations to you after saying I would give you money. In fact, I sent you an email 10/17 that said "FYI, unless you object, I'm switching from $10/month to $40 every 3 months to save you some fees." I then donated $40 to you on Nov 3rd via paypal. While that was my personal money, I would appreciate accurate reporting of our transactions. Your next donation is scheduled for Mar 2nd, but don't expect it.
Please don't screw up a good deal with this insane stuff. There's a lot of progress being made by landowners working with citizens and groups including RMEF.
While I would have done things differently, I stand by my actions since the ticket. You are free to go get one if you think you can do better. I would love to know what I did to piss off all these attorneys that you claim. Most of them shook my hand for taking on Wittich. However, I never found one that said this case would prove anything. I chose the attorney I did because a very respected access lawyer told me to get someone that was familiar with the prosecutor.
I'm comfortable with my past actions, however regarding your accusation about not using the money to help groups including yours, I take that seriously. I did not stop donations to you after saying I would give you money. In fact, I sent you an email 10/17 that said "FYI, unless you object, I'm switching from $10/month to $40 every 3 months to save you some fees." I then donated $40 to you on Nov 3rd via paypal. While that was my personal money, I would appreciate accurate reporting of our transactions. Your next donation is scheduled for Mar 2nd, but don't expect it.
Please don't screw up a good deal with this insane stuff. There's a lot of progress being made by landowners working with citizens and groups including RMEF.
RobG
Well-known member
I will address this:
The landowners have requested the details not be broadcast until there is certainty on what is agreed upon by the participants. I respect those wishes. After an agreeable proposal is developed it will be presented to the public for comment and final vetting.
The landowners have requested the details not be broadcast until there is certainty on what is agreed upon by the participants. I respect those wishes. After an agreeable proposal is developed it will be presented to the public for comment and final vetting.
RobG
Well-known member
OK, I have to expand on this too. On 12/8/17 I cut a check for $240 to PLWA from the access funds. I cut another one for $240 to MSA on 1/13/18 from that fund. I have pledged $1000 to a group to do research on trail and road historical usage, but that might not be needed depending on what is proposed. And as I mentioned previously, I didn't stop contributing to EMWH as you accuse.
Last edited:
Topgun 30-06
Active member
Geez, this quickly developed into a "Kat" fight!!!
katqanna
Well-known member
You might want to stop digging your hole deeper. Recently MSA told me they received a return of their contribution. I asked why, they didn't know, they asked me if I knew why, I didn't. So after this post, I called to verify if it was a contribution to them or a return, how much had they contributed originally, I could not remember from when I was updating the defense fund webpage. He stated $200 and said your letter, which he still has, said a return of their $200 and a $40 contribution.
Also, I now have the subpeoenas you said you had never received from your attorney, which you had received, because I found them in an unopened email from you, when you were sending all those scanned pdf documents of my FOIA that you ordered and made comments on. You knew you had the subpoenas, because you list them in the contents list in the email. I was busy setting up the Crazy Mountain webpages because of Sienkiewicz's removal, at that time, and did not have time to open yet another email with documents I already had. So I missed this one. It also has concerning discovery documents not in your file, because it didn't go to trial, that you never mentioned. This now lines up with the FS email in a later FOIA I have that the Region 1 Forester Leanne Marten wrote of a timeline involving this issue, stating the FS did not have to quash the subpoenas, because you had already settled your case.
Your credibility in this matter is diminishing exponentially.
This thread is not only in the ditch, but through the barbed wire and high centered out in the farmer's field. These kind of quarrels need to be handled via email or PM, not here on the forum.
Locked.
Locked.
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