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Cost of powder.

Is demand really what is driving the price increase? Or is it raw material, manufacturing, and transportation costs?
 
I simply can’t find a legit place for H322. Every place that says they have it requires a cash app and minimum $200 purchase. They will let put 2k pounds in my basket if I use cash app to pay. I really wish Google would delete those websites.

I also with I could find H322
 
Considering that hazmat in the range of $35 was the norm in 2012, I thought everyone knew to buy 8lbs of powder at minimum when ordering online. Back when I shot F-class, everyone would get together and make a group order of powder and primers, and pay up, and then at the next match, whoever placed the order would distribute everything.
 
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rogerthat said:
Is demand really what is driving the price increase? Or is it raw material, manufacturing, and transportation costs?
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What dictates which powders the Alliant folks produce when or for how much volume? Commercial loaders? Handloaders? Considering apparent demand you'd think that they would put out a few lots or is some of the other stuff [unimportant to me] in more demand?
 
utah400elk said:
I simply can’t find a legit place for H322. Every place that says they have it requires a cash app and minimum $200 purchase. They will let put 2k pounds in my basket if I use cash app to pay. I really wish Google would delete those websites.

I also with I could find H322
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Man, I just saw it somewhere in the last couple days. I'll see if I can find where I saw it.
 
Yup….expensive. Shoulda’ stocked up early. Kinda like the ant and the grass hopper story. Not flaming anyone, but……coulda seen this coming. MTG
 
Found a site just the other day that had RL-22, which I have been looking for. When you added up the price, hazmat and shipping, came out to right at $60/lb. I said no thanks at that price. $75/lb for the RL-26, discussed here, is just insane.
 
antelopedundee said:
What dictates which powders the Alliant folks produce when or for how much volume? Commercial loaders? Handloaders? Considering apparent demand you'd think that they would put out a few lots or is some of the other stuff [unimportant to me] in more demand?
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Alliant doesn’t manufacture powder. Neither does Hodgdon. They buy it.

Alliant buys primarily from Bofors. Bofors supplies a number of powder companies, ammo companies and militaries.

Reloaders do not buy “Powder X”(whatever Bofors designates one of their powders) whenever Bofors makes “Powder X”. Powder manufacturers cannot control their end product well enough for reloaders to load ammo based on data rather than using pressure testing equipment. We buy what is called “canister grade”. RL-15 is not every batch of Powder X that Bofors produces. RL-15 is Powder X that falls within a very narrow range of burn rates and energy densities. Bofors cannot guarantee that every batch of powder X will meet the narrow specifications set by Alliant that make it RL-15. Ammo companies however can still use the powder. It’s essentially the same. When they get a new batch, they shoot it in a pressure gun and over a chronograph, and adjust the load to meet the ammo spec they were shooting for. Reloaders cannot exactly do that, the way manufacturers can, so we must use only those batches of powder that fall within a very narrow range of specifications. In that way RL-15 is the same every time we buy a bottle. Now when I say “very narrow specifications” I mean narrow compared to what the end product might turn out to be. There is still quite a bit of variation from lot to lot in canister grade powders, and sometimes reloaders need to adjust their loads to get exactly the same velocity when change powder lots.

Alliant seems to have a much broader spec than Norma. RL-15 and N203b are supposedly the same basic powder from Bofors. Bofors makes up a batch of Powder X, when they’re done they test it. If it falls into the spec for N203b, then can sell it to Norma as N203b. If it falls into the spec for RL-15, they can sell it to Alliant as RL-15. If it falls outside of both of those specs, then they can sell it to ammo manufacturer or a military. So, RL-15 and N203b, are the same basic powder(or at least they were. Things do change from time to time), but you cannot develop a load with RL-15 and then use the exact same load with N203b. They have difference specifications. The difference won’t be huge, but there will be a difference.

Considering the war that’s going on in Europe, I bet that has a lot to do with what powders Bofors is producing, and what is available for Alliant to purchase. Frankly, that’s likely the case with every powder manufacturer in the world.
 
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Don Fischer said:
Just looking at powder on line. Though about AA 4350 till I got to check out. I thing it was $40 a pound then got to shipping and $35 hazmat fee! OTR truck's can mostly carry 80,000#. That's something close to 3 million dollars for a truckload of 1# cans of powder. Sounds kind of steep to me!
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If you live in Western Montana and are interested in VV 550 powder, I’d sell you some. I got a 8 lb jug last year and don’t need all of it.
 
ImBillT said:
Alliant doesn’t manufacture powder. Neither does Hodgdon. They buy it.

Alliant buys primarily from Bofors. Bofors supplies a number of powder companies, ammo companies and militaries.

Reloaders do not buy “Powder X”(whatever Bofors designates one of their powders) whenever Bofors makes “Powder X”. Powder manufacturers cannot control their end product well enough for reloaders to load ammo based on data rather than using pressure testing equipment. We buy what is called “canister grade”. RL-15 is not every batch of Powder X that Bofors produces. RL-15 is Powder X that falls within a very narrow range of burn rates and energy densities. Bofors cannot guarantee that every batch of powder X will meet the narrow specifications set by Alliant that make it RL-15. Ammo companies however can still use the powder. It’s essentially the same. When they get a new batch, they shoot it in a pressure gun and over a chronograph, and adjust the load to meet the ammo spec they were shooting for. Reloaders cannot exactly do that, the way manufacturers can, so we must use only those batches of powder that fall within a very narrow range of specifications. In that way RL-15 is the same every time we buy a bottle. Now when I say “very narrow specifications” I mean narrow compared to what the end product might turn out to be. There is still quite a bit of variation from lot to lot in canister grade powders, and sometimes reloaders need to adjust their loads to get exactly the same velocity when change powder lots.

Alliant seems to have a much broader spec than Norma. RL-15 and N203b are supposedly the same basic powder from Bofors. Bofors makes up a batch of Powder X, when they’re done they test it. If it falls into the spec for N203b, then can sell it to Norma as N203b. If it falls into the spec for RL-15, they can sell it to Alliant as RL-15. If it falls outside of both of those specs, then they can sell it to ammo manufacturer or a military. So, RL-15 and N203b, are the same basic powder(or at least they were. Things do change from time to time), but you cannot develop a load with RL-15 and then use the exact same load with N203b. They have difference specifications. The difference won’t be huge, but there will be a difference.

Considering the war that’s going on in Europe, I bet that has a lot to do with what powders Bofors is producing, and what is available for Alliant to purchase. Frankly, that’s likely the case with every powder manufacturer in the world.
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I understand the manufacturing process and if Bofors is shooting NPI for something in the Reloder 26 burn range it's kind of dumb luck if they hit it with any regularity but the resulting powder will be useful for something. I would posit that they are not shooting for burn ranges in the Re 26 range. I would guess the Ukraine war as you mentioned has a lot to do with it.

That could also be why certain kinds of ammo are scarce. If Federal buys a 50,000 pound lot of powder X, it likely won't be suitable for everything that they load.
 
antelopedundee said:
I understand the manufacturing process and if Bofors is shooting NPI for something in the Reloder 26 burn range it's kind of dumb luck if they hit it with any regularity but the resulting powder will be useful for something. I would posit that they are not shooting for burn ranges in the Re 26 range. I would guess the Ukraine war as you mentioned has a lot to do with it.

That could also be why certain kinds of ammo are scarce. If Federal buys a 50,000 pound lot of powder X, it likely won't be suitable for everything that they load.
Click to expand...
We may be saying the same thing.

If Bofors makes a batch of whatever powder gets labeled RL-26, and it lands outside spec, then it just gets labeled something else, and sold to someone else. If it does land within the range of RL-26, then I would imagine it could still get sold to someone other than Alliant depending on contractual agreements with ammunition companies and militaries. That said, in non-wartimes Bofors can charge a premium any time a lot falls within a canister grade, and powder companies probably don’t want to miss an opportunity to buy, so under normal circumstances, anytime a lot of powder falls within a canister grade, it likely ends up in bottles for reloaders. At least a lot of the time.

Yes. I suspect that the war has Bofors focusing all of their batches on powders that militaries use and thus other powders are being neglected. Even so, when any of those powders land on a canister grade, as long as they aren’t violating a contract, they’re probably sending it to powder companies. My guess would be that over time we end up with lots of certain powders on the shelves, even while others haven’t been seen for years.

Alliant does buy powder elsewhere. I’m not sure where 26 comes from. RL-15 is a Bofors powder.

I’m sure it’s complicated, but I would bet that powder companies outside of Europe have slightly better availability of powders not used by militaries.
 
More dumb luck than at will, but considering small arms military needs I'd posit that Reloder 26 burn rate powders are not high on the priority list.
 
Jeez, I just paid $57 for a lb of Retumbo.
Been looking for about a yr. Off an on.
Still cant find primers. Maybe I shouldn't
bitch
 
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