Corner Crossing latest

[GoGriz]

I do not know that it is legal to have a nonlandowner surveying someone else's land. It is a curious question. There might be a few key corners that some people would be willing to pay to have marked perfectly.

I figure if there was some sort of ok from the local National Forrest or BLM Department, the surveyors could just say they are finding the corner on the public piece - basically the reverse of if one of the landowners had their corner surveyed. I believe we have a resident surveyor or two on here, maybe they will share some wisdom on what may be allowed if someone or some private origination wanted to establish one of these points, from the public’s side of the corners.

 

[BuzzH]

I do not know that it is legal to have a nonlandowner surveying someone else's land. It is an curious question. There might be a few key corners that some people would be willing to pay to have marked perfectly.

Once again, its a shared corner with 1/2 of the corner belonging to 340 million of us. Why would it be inappropriate for the BLM or FS to survey in a corner pin on OUR public land?

Doesn't make sense that they couldn't, they have an equally vested interest in knowing where the corner is.

 

[Treeshark]

Once again, its a shared corner with 1/2 of the corner belonging to 340 million of us. Why would it be inappropriate for the BLM or FS to survey in a corner pin on OUR public land?

Doesn't make sense that they couldn't, they have an equally vested interest in knowing where the corner is.

Exactly. In that example, the surveyor would not be entering private land- even if done by a private surveyor, I cannot imagine what law they would be breaking surveying BLM or FS land (as long as they don’t deposit/move anything).

 

[BrentD]

Once again, its a shared corner with 1/2 of the corner belonging to 340 million of us. Why would it be inappropriate for the BLM or FS to survey in a corner pin on OUR public land?

Doesn't make sense that they couldn't, they have an equally vested interest in knowing where the corner is.

Totally appropriate for BLM or FS to survey it along with any of the private landowners involved. But that is now what I was asking.

Would it be "appropriate" (legal and not at odds with land owners including BLM and USFS) if I, Deep Pockets Danielson, ponied up to have a particular corner surveyed?

 

[BuzzH]

Totally appropriate for BLM or FS to survey it along with any of the private landowners involved. But that is now what I was asking.

Would it be "appropriate" (legal and not at odds with land owners including BLM and USFS) if I, Deep Pockets Danielson, ponied up to have a particular corner surveyed?

Absolutely, but personally I would ask the FS or BLM to do it. The BLM will build roads around private to reach bigger blocks of public land, can't imagine they wouldn't pay for a survey at an important corner.

Edit: we have to wait until after 2028 to make sure they have surveyors again...and public lands left to survey.

 

[Rack Daniels]

No? Because the whole case was won, and was only winnable by, knowing exactly and specifically where to cross.

You’re innocent until PROVEN guilty. On this one, I’m with treecarp my dude

 

[Rack Daniels]

Rubbery word, yes, but in legal context used regularly with plenty of case law to support it. I believe it’s defined as “what a reasonable person would do or think under a similar set of circumstances” or something like that. No better way to set that bar for any situation than thru a jury of your peers. Hopefully that jury isn’t stacked with billionaire landowners. It would be hard for appellate courts to overturn 12 of your randomly selected peers as it relates to what’s reasonable.

Unless they all come from Bozeman and Jackson hole and the like….
I do agree with you though, no doubt.

 

[Rack Daniels]

If you cross knowing that there isn't a pin, aren't you crossing knowing that you're likely trespassing? So the intent would then be to trespass?

This is a great thing and a great decision, lets try not to mess it up. We should be raising money for surveyors to start setting pins!

A moral landowner should want that pin - they should want to know exactly where their property line is. Anything else is just trying to control public lands through ambiguity.

While I would agree here, it would only be ambiguous if the court had to prove the “intent”. The court has to prove there was a crime committed or the “intent” is speculation.

Let’s flip it. Let’s say someone called on a landowner to complain they’d removed the marker with the intent of disrupting the legal travel within public land. How could the court possibly uphold that without proof without reasonable doubt there was, in fact, a marker that was removed, by the accused, FOR THAT PRIMARY REASON?

They could not on that charge, but perhaps a lesser charge like obstruction of justice…. Lord knows they love to use that one!

 

[Rack Daniels]

That's what I'm saying. He'd define is property and not care what happens beyond it - including corner crossing to public land.

I don't agree with your last statement. Its not immoral for a person to not allow public access to their property.

Whose property? You do not believe it’s immoral for a person to not allow public access to said persons property? Or said public’s property?




*Edit: shut up self, keep reading……
You answered this.

 

[gouch]

Absolutely, but personally I would ask the FS or BLM to do it. The BLM will build roads around private to reach bigger blocks of public land, can't imagine they wouldn't pay for a survey at an important corner.

Edit: we have to wait until after 2028 to make sure they have surveyors again...and public lands left to survey.

I spent most of my life surveying public lands and I can tell you that the government does not survey land on the request of private citizens. The government surveys the land to facilitate their own land management projects. This is mainly due to time and money, things the FS and BLM are severely lacking in. But also, if they made special consideration to one person or group then they would have to make the same types of considerations to every person or group, and it would become a big mess. One way to get the government to do the survey would be to do a bunch of damage to the public land. that way they will spend the time and money to do the survey in efforts to prosecute you.

There is no reason that a person or a group of people couldn't hire a surveyor to locate and mark corners. But surveying tends to be expensive. Maybe not as expensive in wide open country like eastern Montana or Wyoming, where a guy could just drive around on an ATV with his RTK GPS equipment, as it is in the steep timber covered country around here, but it still costs. In most states surveyors have what is called " Rights to trespass" so landowners can't keep them of their land if trespassing is needed to complete the survey.

All that being said, there really isn't a need to survey. The vast majority of the corners are not missing, just very inconspicuous due to age. Anyone can find them if they learn how to read corner notes, survey notes and plats and get some practice. All of the notes and plats can be obtained from the county surveyor or the State BLM office and the BLMs GCDB will get you close with GPS coordinates. Corner searching was by far my favorite part of the job. It's like a treasure hunt with the survey notes being the treasure map. I was proud to have developed the reputation as a "Corner Hound" because I got pretty darn good at finding that treasure. After I left the BLM and went to the FS, the BLM guys would even ask my supervisor to lend me out to them whenever they were having trouble finding a corner that they really wanted to find. I was always happy to help.

So, spending time in the summer out in nature searching for corners would be a great new hobby. Even more fun than shed hunting, and a lot more beneficial. It's another great excuse to get out there and it could be combined with shed hunting, mushroom hunting, scouting or even bird watching. When you find a corner that was previously lost it is really exhilarating. If the corner needs re-monumentation the county surveyor may have it in their budget to go out and monument it. I don't know if they still do but it used to be that the Fed. had a fund to pay counties for re-monumenting corners.

 

[BrentD]

All that being said, there really isn't a need to survey. The vast majority of the corners are not missing...

Yet

But wait till August...

 

[gouch]

I'm no lawyer but if a landowner destroyed a survey monument, I would think he would have as a hard a time claiming you trespassed as you would have claiming you didn't.

Unless he admitted to destroying the corner. Which is a crime.

 

[Bigjay73]

Jesus, can we overthink this anymore than we already are? I'm sure the answer is yes

 

[BrentD]

Jesus, can we overthink this anymore than we already are? I'm sure the answer is yes

Turkey season is not open yet, so what else is there to do?

 

[Dave N]

Turkey season is not open yet, so what else is there to do?

 

[BrentD]

What's in my freezer is top secret, but do not think I lack for ice cream. Ever.

 

[Cornell Cowboy]

I spent most of my life surveying public lands and I can tell you that the government does not survey land on the request of private citizens. The government surveys the land to facilitate their own land management projects. This is mainly due to time and money, things the FS and BLM are severely lacking in. But also, if they made special consideration to one person or group then they would have to make the same types of considerations to every person or group, and it would become a big mess. One way to get the government to do the survey would be to do a bunch of damage to the public land. that way they will spend the time and money to do the survey in efforts to prosecute you.

There is no reason that a person or a group of people couldn't hire a surveyor to locate and mark corners. But surveying tends to be expensive. Maybe not as expensive in wide open country like eastern Montana or Wyoming, where a guy could just drive around on an ATV with his RTK GPS equipment, as it is in the steep timber covered country around here, but it still costs. In most states surveyors have what is called " Rights to trespass" so landowners can't keep them of their land if trespassing is needed to complete the survey.

All that being said, there really isn't a need to survey. The vast majority of the corners are not missing, just very inconspicuous due to age. Anyone can find them if they learn how to read corner notes, survey notes and plats and get some practice. All of the notes and plats can be obtained from the county surveyor or the State BLM office and the BLMs GCDB will get you close with GPS coordinates. Corner searching was by far my favorite part of the job. It's like a treasure hunt with the survey notes being the treasure map. I was proud to have developed the reputation as a "Corner Hound" because I got pretty darn good at finding that treasure. After I left the BLM and went to the FS, the BLM guys would even ask my supervisor to lend me out to them whenever they were having trouble finding a corner that they really wanted to find. I was always happy to help.

So, spending time in the summer out in nature searching for corners would be a great new hobby. Even more fun than shed hunting, and a lot more beneficial. It's another great excuse to get out there and it could be combined with shed hunting, mushroom hunting, scouting or even bird watching. When you find a corner that was previously lost it is really exhilarating. If the corner needs re-monumentation the county surveyor may have it in their budget to go out and monument it. I don't know if they still do but it used to be that the Fed. had a fund to pay counties for re-monumenting corners.

Unfortunately no right to trespass in Wyoming. I had to pay $250 to Dave True for the privilege of having my surveyor cross his property to get a monument located on public land !

 

[MTGomer]

You can hire a private surveyor to survey public lands to the best of my knowledge.

I’ve surveyed public lands for oil companies, solar companies etc. why not for a hunter?

 

[MTGomer]

All that being said, there really isn't a need to survey. The vast majority of the corners are not missing, just very inconspicuous due to age. Anyone can find them if they learn how to read corner notes, survey notes and plats and get some practice. All of the notes and plats can be obtained from the county surveyor or the State BLM office and the BLMs GCDB will get you close with GPS coordinates.

I would encourage people to go look for corners and to also read the bold part twice.

For the most part, the interior of a standard section is pretty cut and dry. But there are certain cases where there are correction lines, witness corners, reference monuments, closing corners etc where the untrained member of the general public could end up in hot water.

 

[gouch]

I would encourage people to go look for corners and to also read the bold part twice.

For the most part, the interior of a standard section is pretty cut and dry. But there are certain cases where there are correction lines, witness corners, reference monuments, closing corners etc where the untrained member of the general public could end up in hot water.

Yeah, I had the unfortunate task of informing a landowner that he had built his brand-new fence to a witness corner and was 100 ft. on to public land. People never seem take that kind of news without wanting to fight.