Corner Crossing latest

[antlerradar]

Just a couple thoughts. An undisturbed BLM or General Land Office monument will hold up as the corner 99.99% of the time. A monument set by a licensed surveyor will be nearly as good.

OnX and all other mapping software uses data provided by the BLM. It is a great tool, but it is not a exact representation of corner. Some are closer than others. Remember some of these corners were set in 1880 and have not been revisited since, some were set in a resurvey by the BLM im 2023. The mobile mapping software reflects this huge range of time and techonolgy in how closely it represents the actual location of the corner.

I would not cross at any place but the pin. You may be correct that it would be hard to convict you in criminal court, but if landowner deep pocket takes you to civil court the burden of prof is much lower. The damages of crossing ten feet from the corner are likely slight, but it will cost you hundreds of thousands. Hunters need to be careful and cross only at the pin. Failure to do so will build momentum for those that want to ban corner crossing legislatively.

 

[Rie Bread]

I have a suspicion it’s gonna be game on with the game wardens this year in Montana.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

We were talking about the moral landowner, not the immoral landowner that lacks a moral compass.

What about the immoral hunter? Everyone is here talking about landowners removing pins, how long until a hunter puts one in?

https://www.berntsen.com/Surveying/Concrete-Survey-Markers/Bronze-Concrete-Survey-Markers/ctl/ViewProduct/mid/584/ItemID/379?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwtJ6_BhDWARIsAGanmKcbF3wggdk3PisSb9Tqjdbh_LkltRmXOkvP9x0mcfodI1dz8x-PZYYaAqwdEALw_wcB

 

[BuzzH]

I would not cross at any place but the pin. You may be correct that it would be hard to convict you in criminal court, but if landowner deep pocket takes you to civil court the burden of prof is much lower. The damages of crossing ten feet from the corner are likely slight, but it will cost you hundreds of thousands. Hunters need to be careful and cross only at the pin. Failure to do so will build momentum for those that want to ban corner crossing legislatively.

Would have to banned at the Federal level...the States in the 10th circuit can pass all the state laws they want about corner crossing, but they wouldn't mean a thing.

 

[gouch]

The way the case was won, both at the civil and criminal/local/district court, was the exact location is known.

A phone gps isnt accurate enough to do that - a fact that will make anyone else lose in court. Regardless of who your lawyers are - the facts matter. They are accurate within 15' at best.

Not only is your GPS receiver not accurate but the coordinates of the corner are not likely accurate. The coordinates of the corners rely on the BLM's Geographic Coordinate Data Base, GCDB. If a corner marker has GPS data tied directly to it, it is accurate. If it is tied by a survey, directly to another monument that has direct GPS data it is pretty accurate. All other corners are tied by combining survey data with varying degrees of accuracy. So, the farther from a direct tie the less accurate the GPS data. When we used GCDB to locate corners we usually got to within 60 ft. Close enough to find the marker but not close enough to say this is the corner.

When I was doing cadastral surveying, we had a saying. "The corner is, where the corner is" In other words the official corner is where the monument is, no matter how far out of position it happens to be. If, of course, it was placed there by an official government survey. I personally found one 1/4 cor. over 500 ft. out of position. So, if you were relying on the map on your phone in that case, you could be trespassing by at least 500 ft.

So, I guess that whether it is your responsibility to identify the actual corner location or the landowner's responsibility would depend on what judge was hearing the case.

 

[HiMtnHntr]

I could see a fund started to get the corners marked…

 

[BuzzH]

I could see a fund started to get the corners marked…

In particular in areas that crossing one corner opens up a larger block.

 

[grizzly63]

What about the immoral hunter? Everyone is here talking about landowners removing pins, how long until a hunter puts one in?

https://www.berntsen.com/Surveying/Concrete-Survey-Markers/Bronze-Concrete-Survey-Markers/ctl/ViewProduct/mid/584/ItemID/379?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwtJ6_BhDWARIsAGanmKcbF3wggdk3PisSb9Tqjdbh_LkltRmXOkvP9x0mcfodI1dz8x-PZYYaAqwdEALw_wcB

I think that would be very unwise and probably pretty darn expensive. Probably a federal violation.

 

[DP_PublicLands]

Depends on what you mean when you say "Their." The public is entitled to access their property (public land) through a legal means. Private citizens do not have the right to interfere, although all across the west, they routinely do because of their greed and sense of entitlement. Every single county road intersection in SE New Mexico in the 90's was littered with "no trespassing" "keep out" "private property" signs on the shoulders everywhere that private land bordered BLM. The signs were technically on private land within inches of the BLM, but it gave a person traveling the public road the impression that they were entering private land when in fact they were entering BLM. It was an obvious strategy to try and privatize hundreds of thousands of acres of public land, and it usually worked. I knew one landowner that was surrounded by BLM who would routinely go into hunter's camps while they were away and pour out all their water. This was a solid hour's drive on rough gravel roads from the nearest water supply. Finally I convinced a state game warden to do something about it, but you could tell he really didn't want to. Every day of hunting BLM land in SE New Mexico led to an uncomfortable interaction with a local landowner who usually insisted that the BLM land you were standing on was their private ranch. It was sickening to see these same people who would lie and intimidate anyone who came near their place, show up in church on Sunday and act like the 13th apostle of Christ. And of course, they would all take turns as county commissioners to make sure "the order" was held in place.

It's about time the laws have started to work the way they always should have in the first place. Maybe it will convince some of these landowners to exchanged locked up parcels with some of their lands to consolidate their holdings. One can always dream.

We are on the same page. What I mean by “their” is their deeded land.

I’m probably the biggest advocate for public land and public land access that you’ll ever meet. Clearly defined boundaries are good for everyone involved. Clearly mark the private land and don’t restrict access to the public in any form (including corner crossing).

When people talk about property rights, they usually add the word “private”. They say “private property rights”. However, property rights are property rights, public or private. A private landowner next to public land is everyone’s neighbor. Clear and defined boundaries make good neighbors.

 

[glass eye]

Nothing new

Deuteronomy 27:17

 

[nrpate05]

Would have to banned at the Federal level...the States in the 10th circuit can pass all the state laws they want about corner crossing, but they wouldn't mean a thing.

Yes, because the judge cited the Unlawful Enclosures Act (federal law) and determined that it (obviously) trumps Wyoming state law. This is quite the precedent for opening up corner crossing outside of the 10th circuit, which is a pretty conservative court.

 

[Elky Welky]

Not everyone has BHA standing behind them to fund their defense.

If you are a public land hunter legally and respectfully crossing at a corner, BHA will stand with you.

Also, I've said this on another thread, but going out and corner crossing and then hoping to get prosecuted/sued is probably not the best way to try and change the law in non-10th circuit jurisdictions. This 10th Circuit Ruling gives a very good roadmap for how to sue a landowner under the Unlawful Inclosures [sic] Act if they are illegally blocking a corner. Public land users should be vigilant about landowners illegally blocking access, and be prepared to sue if a landowner isn't playing nice.

 

[JDH]

I am no expert, but I used to work for a surveyor friend on my days off from my regular job.

Land surveys are a matter of historical data and all surveys must be filed at the county courthouse in the locale where they exist.

When a surveyor begins a new survey he (or she) must start from a known point, ie: an existing survey marker or monument.
Some of the older surveys we researched as starting points were actually worded as such: "seventeen paces North of the large boulder at the corner of -______. (As an example)

Those survey markers/points ARE what the law must go buy if that is the registered historical data point.

Many, many fences are not on property lines due to uneven terrain, waterways, or even inethical landowners.

Onx obtains their property lines and corners from the local county courthouse's written historical records, thus if there is a mistake in identifying a corner properly it would either fall on Onx or the county recorder as being negligent in accurate data entry or preservation. In wither case one would hope they have proper protections or insurance in such cases.

This is just from my 10,000' view and I am not a land lawyer or legal expert... but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once.

My wife and I own 12 acres. There's one corner that consists of a large stone. It's been surveyed by the previous owner and a neighbor. There's 2 wood laths sitting beside it, one looks 10 years older than the other.