Corner Crossing latest

[Straight Arrow]

May or may not be the right policy choice for WY but hardly “far out”. In fact the land owner in this case has put up experts saying this inflated the price he paid for the land. The assessor should consider that testimony if they are doing their job properly.

Typically in Montana, the real estate appraisor does consider the inflated value due to proximity of or bordering public land or public waterway. However, the tax assessor in evaluating property for property tax purposes looks to nearby properties which have recently sold, and if the desirable location has inflated the value of the sale then it is a factor, but only as it pertains to a real estate transaction. Otherwise, the tax assessor does not consider that inflation. Thus, the assertion that proximity to public land (corner to corner or otherwise) increases the tax assessment is not valid, even "far out", IMHO. Furthermore, the potential for a corner crossing provision for public access would not be a "taking".

My opinion is in part based on dealings recently with the Montana Dept of Revenue appraisal process in that I protested and appealed my property tax assessment on a piece of property adjacent to the Blue Ribbon designated Gallatin River. The successful appeal was based on the reality that the parcel is in the floodplain, with stringent restrictions. The real estate factor that it is desirable for fishing and other recreation was not a factor in tax assessment evaluation.

The point is that there is often a big difference between real estate value and property tax assessment value. Hopefully the Wyoming case will not be a basis for diminishing that difference. If so ... then the "taking" aspect will not be that "far out".

 

[BuzzH]

In theory it should reduce their property values - but that doesn’t matter as the increased value wasn’t theirs to keep in the first place. It’s like if my house is across from a low use city park and it made my home more desirable to purchasers. But then my city decided to build a big dog park that drove lots of traffic and noise into the neighborhood and my home became less desirable. That is the reality of real estate. The lawful land use of your neighbors effects your values but that is the risk you take. These folks need to grow up and stop whining- they enjoyed a windfall at public expense for years and it is coming to an end. We don’t have to pretend this doesn’t suck for them - it’s just that it sucking for them isn’t our problem.

It won't devalue their property a single penny, just like stream access didn't devalue private property a single penny.

So when do they cut public land users a check for all this value they got for the windfall they enjoyed for all these years denying access to public lands?

I couldn't give a big rats ass if it sucks for them.

 

[BuzzH]

May or may not be the right policy choice for WY but hardly “far out”. In fact the land owner in this case has put up experts saying this inflated the price he paid for the land. The assessor should consider that testimony if they are doing their job properly.

Calling James Rinehart an expert in land value is a gigantic stretch...a sellout POS who would peddle his own mother to make a nickel is more accurate.

I trust real estate agents less than politicians and since he's not an appraiser his "expert" advice is nonsense.

 

[VikingsGuy]

It won't devalue their property a single penny, just like stream access didn't devalue private property a single penny.

That simply make no senses. Remember the three rules of property values - location location location.

So when do they cut public land users a check for all this value they got for the windfall they enjoyed for all these years denying access to public lands?

Should have shown up inherently in the land values they were taxed on. But WY assessors are in the pocket of a few land owners, that is between them and the good people of WY.

I couldn't give a big rats ass if it sucks for them.

On this we fully agree.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Calling James Rinehart an expert in land value is a gigantic stretch...a sellout POS who would peddle his own mother to make a nickel is more accurate.

I trust real estate agents less than politicians and since he's not an appraiser his "expert" advice is nonsense.

We can agree on the sentiment - but it was this landowner's choice to point to inflated valuations - he should live with the consequences.

 

[BuzzH]

That simply make no senses. Remember the three rules of property values - location location location.

Find me an example, a single one, where property that bordered a stream or river in Montana depreciated in value after stream access was passed.

Good luck with that.

Same with corner crossing. Show me a ranch property that James Rinehart has listed that is advertised at a cut rate due to the recent threat of corner crossing judgement.

Better luck with that one too.

This property devaluing argument is all crap, total nonsense.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Find me an example, a single one, where property that bordered a stream or river in Montana depreciated in value after stream access was passed.

Good luck with that.

Same with corner crossing. Show me a ranch property that James Rinehart has listed that is advertised at a cut rate due to the recent threat of corner crossing judgement.

Better luck with that one too.

This property devaluing argument is all crap, total nonsense.

My 7 years on HT has taught me that once you dig in there is no point in reasoned discussion, but to the others watching this thread, arguing that the presence or absence of adjacent amenities and/or the presence or absence of the general public on adjacent properties doesn't effect values is just silly.

 

[Schism]

arguing that the presence or absence of adjacent amenities and/or the presence or absence of the general public on adjacent properties doesn't effect values is just silly.

I think in theory you are correct while in reality the price of these ranches has continued to climb throughout the west. Perhaps if corner crossing is made legal the rate of appreciation may slow some but I don't foresee any of these ranches depreciating in value due to corner crossing.

 

[seeth07]

I think in theory you are correct while in reality the price of these ranches has continued to climb throughout the west. Perhaps if corner crossing is made legal the rate of appreciation may slow some but I don't foresee any of these ranches depreciating in value due to corner crossing.

As a current perspective buyer, it absolutely will impact my decision and this case has specifically held me back from making a purchase.

A year ago I was looking at a 140 acre property in WY where if the result of this case changes the publics perception of it's legality and it becomes common practice to corner cross from public to public, I would not have wanted to buy that property. The main draw to that property and its listing price was because it bordered almost a 1000 acres of public property with no access to it other than by corner crossing and was only bordered by 3 total private land owners. The 140 acres itself is pretty low habitat/likely wildlife usage compared to the public it shares borders with. The asking price of almost 1 million would be laughable if the public perception of corner crossing being legal was changed to acceptable.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Jacking up ag property rates means you get more billionaire landowners because that's who can afford the tax payment.

Lot of billionare and millionare ranch owners that appreciate your perspective too. My undeveloped 1 acre lot - tax value near 50k. A 320 acre parcel in the same county - has about 1/3rd of that. It would take near 5000 of commerical ag acres to pay what a lot of people pay for a middle class house (2-4k in prop tax).

Restraunts are a growing "corporate" enviroment- run more and more by fat mega companies that buy up successful small companies. Think their tax bill shames the ag one too. Why doesnt anyone feel sorry for them? Care to look at what a retail company pays?

Sure be nice if i got every tax break, government handout, and benefit of the doubt. Im just a decent earning tax payer though. I dont have a lobby or politicans.

 

[fowladdict]

The asking price of almost 1 million would be laughable if the public perception of corner crossing being legal was changed to acceptable.

Maybe east of the Rocky Mountains, but on the west side probably not.

 

[DP_PublicLands]

As a current perspective buyer, it absolutely will impact my decision and this case has specifically held me back from making a purchase.

A year ago I was looking at a 140 acre property in WY where if the result of this case changes the publics perception of it's legality and it becomes common practice to corner cross from public to public, I would not have wanted to buy that property. The main draw to that property and its listing price was because it bordered almost a 1000 acres of public property with no access to it other than by corner crossing and was only bordered by 3 total private land owners. The 140 acres itself is pretty low habitat/likely wildlife usage compared to the public it shares borders with. The asking price of almost 1 million would be laughable if the public perception of corner crossing being legal was changed to acceptable.

Question for you - what if it was checkerboard private? If another private landowner owned the other half of the checkerboard? Lets say the access is through your property and not his, and you don't let him access. Does that mean you have free range of his land and that increases the value of your ranch?

Lets flip the scenario - lets say that not only is the other half of the checkerboard privately owned, but the landowner wouldn't allow access to you to cross his airspace in the corner. Does your land become his?

Third scenario - he used to give you permission to cross the corner and now he doesn't. What's to follow... court action?

Everyone should be a proponent of property rights. Not just private property rights, not just public property rights, but PROPERTY RIGHTS. For some reason we have created this false sense that private property rights outweigh public property rights. In fact, people rarely use the term "public property rights". As far as the law is concerned, public ownership has just as many rights as private ownership. Think of it as property in a trust with 330 million people in it, with the ranch manager being the FS or other agency.

 

[Matthew57]

As a current perspective buyer, it absolutely will impact my decision and this case has specifically held me back from making a purchase.

A year ago I was looking at a 140 acre property in WY where if the result of this case changes the publics perception of it's legality and it becomes common practice to corner cross from public to public, I would not have wanted to buy that property. The main draw to that property and its listing price was because it bordered almost a 1000 acres of public property with no access to it other than by corner crossing and was only bordered by 3 total private land owners. The 140 acres itself is pretty low habitat/likely wildlife usage compared to the public it shares borders with. The asking price of almost 1 million would be laughable if the public perception of corner crossing being legal was changed to acceptable.

Not looking for honey holes, but could you send me a Zillow waypoint?

 

[Ben Lamb]

Lot of billionare and millionare ranch owners that appreciate your perspective too. My undeveloped 1 acre lot - tax value near 50k. A 320 acre parcel in the same county - has about 1/3rd of that. It would take near 5000 of commerical ag acres to pay what a lot of people pay for a middle class house (2-4k in prop tax).

Restraunts are a growing "corporate" enviroment- run more and more by fat mega companies that buy up successful. Think their tax bill shames the ag one too. Why doesnt anyone feel sorry for them? Care to look at what a retail company pays?

Sure be nice if i got every tax break, government handout, and benefit of the doubt. Im just a decent earning tax payer though. I dont have a lobby or politicans.

You may want to look into corporate tax subsidies and property tax breaks, equipment tax breaks, etc before jumping down that hole, amigo.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think in theory you are correct while in reality the price of these ranches has continued to climb throughout the west. Perhaps if corner crossing is made legal the rate of appreciation may slow some but I don't foresee any of these ranches depreciating in value due to corner crossing.

Yup. Like in the city increasing HOA fees are suppressing valuations even though they are rising. They are “suppressing the curve” so to speak.

 

[seeth07]

Question for you - what if it was checkerboard private? If another private landowner owned the other half of the checkerboard? Lets say the access is through your property and not his, and you don't let him access. Does that mean you have free range of his land and that increases the value of your ranch?

Lets flip the scenario - lets say that not only is the other half of the checkerboard privately owned, but the landowner wouldn't allow access to you to cross his airspace in the corner. Does your land become his?

Third scenario - he used to give you permission to cross the corner and now he doesn't. What's to follow... court action?

Everyone should be a proponent of property rights. Not just private property rights, not just public property rights, but PROPERTY RIGHTS. For some reason we have created this false sense that private property rights outweigh public property rights. In fact, people rarely use the term "public property rights". As far as the law is concerned, public ownership has just as many rights as private ownership. Think of it as property in a trust with 330 million people in it, with the ranch manager being the FS or other agency.

You are misreading my post in that you are assuming which side of this topic I am on. I'm 100% on board with it being legal and I want it to be legal.

I'm just pointing out that I'm also an investor with some money to invest right now and due to this issue and its current status, it is not a good time for me to invest in a property that has a valuation inflated by its borders with public lands that contain access points only via corner crossing

 

[Forkyfinder]

You may want to look into corporate tax subsidies and property tax breaks, equipment tax breaks, etc before jumping down that hole, amigo.

Sure thing. Let me know which of those tax breaks ag corps dont qualify for.

 

[BuzzH]

My 7 years on HT has taught me that once you dig in there is no point in reasoned discussion, but to the others watching this thread, arguing that the presence or absence of adjacent amenities and/or the presence or absence of the general public on adjacent properties doesn't effect values is just silly.

You can't make a claim of devaluing property because of public access to public land and waters when it doesn't happen.

I won't apologize for asking for proof of it happening one single time.

In my world, facts matter.

 

[VikingsGuy]

You can't make a claim of devaluing property because of public access to public land and waters when it doesn't happen.

I won't apologize for asking for proof of it happening one single time.

In my world, facts matter.

Well, part of my role for the last 20 years has been advising our tax organization on the impact of "intangible" considerations in tax valuations. Have been involved in 40+ states and 70+ countries. I will let our internal tax team and our leading edge outside tax counsel know they will not be needing my thoughts on these topics any longer because a Forestry Service civil servant told me none of it matters and we have all been wasting our time. I will cc: the various tax authorities (states and foreign govts) so they can quit including such considerations in their claims and assessments. Just think of all the time and money you have saved us all. Or maybe I won't

 

[VikingsGuy]

In my world, facts matter.

In my world facts, the law, precedent and years of experience matter. Your personal anecdotes are not facts. Hell, 6 yrs ago or so you told me I was a fool for suggesting corner crossing trespass was a legal house of cards and someone should challenge it - yet now you are the biggest cheerleader. It is great you care about these things, it is great you bring a lot of passion and a lot of anecdotal experience about how WY & MT work, its great that you learned and changed your mind. It's not great that you confuse your passions and anecdotes as facts and laws in fields you have no formal training in.