copper plated shot - What's the benefit

[Hunting Wife]

But do you know why? I wondered if it was that regulations automatically rule them out (>1% lead) or if they were actually the same toxicity as standard lead. I may have to call @Hunting Wife and she what she says.

I do not know the answer. I can surmise a few potential outcomes, but the likelihood or frequency of these occurring would be complete speculation on my part.

Damaged coatings would obviously render the lead available for uptake. I could see species with gizzards possibly being capable of grinding through non-toxic platings. Raptors have incredible digestive powers…perhaps they would be physiologically capable of breaching those coatings as well? No clue.

I also have no idea how thick those platings are and how they would fare exposed to the environment over years. Some of our western wetlands are highly corrosive due to local geology. Maybe a better chemist than me would know more.

 

[VikingsGuy]

But do you know why? I wondered if it was that regulations automatically rule them out (>1% lead) or if they were actually the same toxicity as standard lead. I may have to call @Hunting Wife and she what she says.

Primarily lead with thin nickel shell that gets damaged in the barrel, impact with bird, etc. If eaten bird gizzard and stomach are pretty tough environments. .

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think the biggest factor in pattern differences is not the pellet paint job but rather the wad structure.

I would imagine both have an effect.

 

[MarvB]

Ever try the old Activ turkey loads? Outstanding ammo.

Oh yeah! Had a few boxes of the 3"
2 1/4 oz #6 load…DEADLY on turkeys! Wish I had bought a case, but that had to be like close to 20 years ago?

 

[Mallardsx2]

In the words of my old buddy (who has passed on to the turkey gods) “they are copper plated so you don’t die of lead poisoning” in case of an accident…

He was shot in Pennsylvania back in the 90’s. When he died at the age of 83 in 2004 he still had 27 in his head, shoulders and neck…..

True story.

 

[F250]

I attended a class instructed by Tom Roster (independent shotgun ballistics expert and court certified shotshell and shotgun expert). He explained that the copper coated pellets used in shotshells are only the result of a "wash" process. To be copper "plated", would require each pellet be coated with a controlled electrolysis process. The gizzards of waterfowl make short work of the "wash" and are soon down to the lead. That's why copper coated lead is not legal for waterfowl hunting in the US and Canada.

 

[Durango Mike]

I was browsing around trying to find some ammo (to restock after a trigger happy weekend). What is the benefit of copper plated lead shot pellets? They're clearly more expensive than lead but still way cheaper than the bismuth loads. I see they're not considered non-toxic does that mean that the stomach acid in raptors is enough to dissolve the copper plating? Do they pattern better because they don't deform?

I know many of you are way more knowledgeable on this than me.

Basically the plating process increases hardness and lubricity so the shot column is less distorted as it passes through bore and choke. in my testing of competition shotgun loads i noticed about a 5-7% improvement in pattern density (more shot in pattern with the same choke, with same pattern diameter). Nickle plated shot with high antimony content was the best, compared with soft lead shot we used in skeet loads (I recall the Russians used to load square shot in international skeet loads to increase pattern diameter at 25 yards). International style trap with 1400 fps 12 ga using 7/8 oz loads incorporates plated hard shot to improve patterns. My favorite 28ga grouse load was 3/4 oz nickle #7 at 1200 fps. Plated shot does not qualify as non toxic.

 

[Hem]

I attended a class instructed by Tom Roster (independent shotgun ballistics expert and court certified shotshell and shotgun expert). He explained that the copper coated pellets used in shotshells are only the result of a "wash" process. To be copper "plated", would require each pellet be coated with a controlled electrolysis process. The gizzards of waterfowl make short work of the "wash" and are soon down to the lead. That's why copper coated lead is not legal for waterfowl hunting in the US and

Good explanation F250.
Thanks to others, as well, for clarification on what the term "plated" truly implies.

Interesting revelation on my end. I indicated using nothing but copper plated buffered magnum 4's for over two and a half decades. My initial purchase of this Remington shell lasted me many years . I stocked up with two more boxes a couple years ago. I swear, the same exact shotshell, but apparantly not. Everything the same except no mention of copper plated, instead " hard polished shot".
Guess I missed the bus.
Remington must have switched things around to stop further confusion on the toxicity element.

 

[Irrelevant]

The unfortunate result of this thread appears to be that I need to pony up more cash for some bismuth, or as @winmag pointed out, I could shift it into hard and just shoot steel.

This last weekend I had just lost a chukar, neither the dog nor I could find it, and I looked up and saw a golden eagle circling. Then on my drive out there were numerous mid-sized hawks (of which I swear they all look the same) and every other stand of power line had a kestrel on it. I couldn't point to any of those birds and say for a $1- the approx difference per shot between cheap lead and bismuth, that it should die.

In trying to research this topic a bit before I posted I read that the lethal dose for a bald eagle is 1.27grains. That's freaking tiny. If you down size that to kestrel (my self-proclaimed spirit animal), it feels like it could be as small as the residue left around a wound channel...

 

[OntarioHunter]

Basically the plating process increases hardness and lubricity so the shot column is less distorted as it passes through bore and choke. in my testing of competition shotgun loads i noticed about a 5-7% improvement in pattern density (more shot in pattern with the same choke, with same pattern diameter). Nickle plated shot with high antimony content was the best, compared with soft lead shot we used in skeet loads (I recall the Russians used to load square shot in international skeet loads to increase pattern diameter at 25 yards). International style trap with 1400 fps 12 ga using 7/8 oz loads incorporates plated hard shot to improve patterns. My favorite 28ga grouse load was 3/4 oz nickle #7 at 1200 fps. Plated shot does not qualify as non toxic.

You are comparing apples and oranges ... or rather several varieties of apples to each other. There's more to them than just the seeds inside. A valid comparison would require reloading shells using all the same components but shot. I do reload my trap shells and I can tell you it makes a big difference what wad, powder, primer, and even hull is used in the recipe. When comparing various brands of competition loads, you have no way of knowing what other components are different besides the pellet paint job. Even the pellets inside the paint can be different (higher antimony as you noted). As an example: Our club usually arranges to buy bulk shells for members and resale from our target supplier. We have to take what the supplier offers and that varies from year to year. Consequently, I often have a variety of scavenged hulls to choose from. Both the Canadian manufactueres and even some of the American ones use Chedite hulls imported from France. These typically reload well for me even though they are cheap "straight wall" hulls. During the ammo shortage some club members were able to pick up a few flats of Polish trap shells. Hulls had the distinctive Chedite star pattern so I saved them for loading. Using the same powder, wad, shot, primer recipe those hulls would dud every third or fourth time. Blue box Federal hulls also fire very inconsistently. Remington and AA work well but few club members shoot them and the few that do usually don't throw them away. This fall before leaving for Montana I loaded up some trap recipes with #6 shot for uplands (lucky to find #6 with the ongoing components and ammo drought). I had used up my wads and shifted to another brand. Same hulls, same powder but countless duds. Cost me several easy shots (oh well ... more birds I didn't have to clean). It sucked but I was glad I had them. The shelves in all Montana stores were totally empty when I got there.

Incidentally, another reloading trick I formerly used to "cheat" at skeet like the Russians was to make up spreader loads for station eight. I have a bag of old 16 gauge paper wads (very old!) that I'd split in half and then slip in a disk half way up the shot charge. I put those two shells in the spare slots on the outside of the bag to keep them separate. No one keeps score on the skeet side so it's not like I'd win anything. Eventually I shot so well it was a nuisance fiddling with spreader loads. This past year I missed a total of one shot on station eight (but I do shoot that one high gun).

 

[OntarioHunter]

The unfortunate result of this thread appears to be that I need to pony up more cash for some bismuth, or as @winmag pointed out, I could shift it into hard and just shoot steel.

This last weekend I had just lost a chukar, neither the dog nor I could find it, and I looked up and saw a golden eagle circling. Then on my drive out there were numerous mid-sized hawks (of which I swear they all look the same) and every other stand of power line had a kestrel on it. I couldn't point to any of those birds and say for a $1- the approx difference per shot between cheap lead and bismuth, that it should die.

In trying to research this topic a bit before I posted I read that the lethal dose for a bald eagle is 1.27grains. That's freaking tiny. If you down size that to kestrel (my self-proclaimed spirit animal), it feels like it could be as small as the residue left around a wound channel...

I just spent almost the entire season shooting uplands with steel. The federal refuge requires it and the refuge was the only place with cover (albeit much less than normal after they turned a couple hundred pairs of cattle loose on the place). Steel shot works fine on uplands. More finicky with ironclad waterfowl but still works for them too if you make adjustments. Shoot pheasants with #4 twelve gauge duck loads and you'll do fine. Chukars and Huns maybe #6.

Raptors don't hang onto lead like waterfowl because they don't have a gizzard. That lethal dose you quoted seems awful low for something that will pass through such a huge bird relatively quickly. I'd like to see the science behind that. Did they feed some captive eagles lead to see how much they can take? Very doubtful.

 

[Irrelevant]

I just spent almost the entire season shooting uplands with steel. The federal refuge requires it and the refuge was the only place with cover (albeit much less than normal after they turned a couple hundred pairs of cattle loose on the place). Steel shot works fine on uplands. More finicky with ironclad waterfowl but still works for them too if you make adjustments. Shoot pheasants with #4 twelve gauge duck loads and you'll do fine. Chukars and Huns maybe #6.

Raptors don't hang onto lead like waterfowl because they don't have a gizzard. That lethal dose you quoted seems awful low for something that will pass through such a huge bird relatively quickly. I'd like to see the science behind that. Did they feed some captive eagles lead to see how much they can take? Very doubtful.

Go away. You're never helpful.

https://www.fws.gov/midwest/refuges/FAQs.pdf

 

[MThuntr]

Low quality copper plating is actually just a copper wash while the higher quality stuff is plated. I've actually had shot that was only partially plated and the lead was quite soft. If you use hardened lead shot it performs pretty well until you get into those super high velocity loads then go with nickel plated. I have some loads that are booked at 1550fps that I probably should be using nickel but dang that stuff is expensive to ship

 

[OntarioHunter]

Go away. You're never helpful.

https://www.fws.gov/midwest/refuges/FAQs.pdf

View attachment 209439

Laboratory dosing studies? What were they dosing? Surely not bald eagles! Mice maybe. Definitely apples and oranges. Again, I'd like to see the science, not just a summary of it written by someone with an agenda. Don't get me wrong, if non toxic shot was mandated across the board for everything I wouldn't shed a tear. But as a researcher and someone with a significant post secondary biology background, the glib generalization you quoted from FFW literature is far from satisfactory "proof". As a former federal employee I am VERY familiar with superiors, especially animal lover superiors, who didn't hesitate to twist the findings to fit an agenda.

 

[Perlodid]

Laboratory dosing studies? What were they dosing? Surely not bald eagles! Mice maybe. Definitely apples and oranges. Again, I'd like to see the science, not just a summary of it written by someone with an agenda. Don't get me wrong, if non toxic shot was mandated across the board for everything I wouldn't shed a tear. But as a researcher and someone with a significant post secondary biology background, the glib generalization you quoted from FFW literature is far from satisfactory "proof". As a former federal employee I am VERY familiar with superiors, especially animal lover superiors, who didn't hesitate to twist the findings to fit an agenda.

What exactly are you so suspicious of? Do you think it's even a debate that raptors are dying of lead poisoning? Someone with "a significant post secondary biology background" surely can find their way over to google scholar and read the studies themselves. Just to be safe though

"Experimental dosing of five bald eagles with 10 to
156 lead shot resulted in mortality of all birds in 10 to
133 days, with a loss in body weight of 16-23% (7).
Lead concentrations above 5.0 mg/kg w/w in the
kidney and above 10 ppm w/w in liver were suggested
as indicators of acute exposure to lead"

from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1480957/pdf/canvetj00063-0046.pdf

I can link plenty more if you'd like. My concern is not the specific amount required for poisoning, but moreso the prevalence of elevated lead levels and lead poisoning in raptors in the wild currently.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Growing up my dad always taught me to use copper #4’s for Turkey. He also used to use them for fox and coyote when he was younger and could make enough calling them in a weekend to buy a new gun. I’ve killed toms out to 60 yards with it. My understanding was that it was harder and has more “knock down” power for larger birds and game. Could be partly myth like a lot of hunting things I’ve heard over the years only later to research and find otherwise.

As for non-toxic I’ve been curious why they don’t make copper solid shot? Does anyone know? Or maybe they do now and I am unaware as I don’t do much hunting with shotguns anymore.

 

[Irrelevant]

Laboratory dosing studies? What were they dosing? Surely not bald eagles! Mice maybe. Definitely apples and oranges. Again, I'd like to see the science, not just a summary of it written by someone with an agenda. Don't get me wrong, if non toxic shot was mandated across the board for everything I wouldn't shed a tear. But as a researcher and someone with a significant post secondary biology background, the glib generalization you quoted from FFW literature is far from satisfactory "proof". As a former federal employee I am VERY familiar with superiors, especially animal lover superiors, who didn't hesitate to twist the findings to fit an agenda.

Do you need to be spoon fed you blathering old man?

Papers/Studies — Hunting With Non-Lead

huntingwithnonlead.org

Just go away if you have nothing productive to add to a conversation.

 

[Perlodid]

Sorry that this is only tangentially related to the purpose of this thread - the raptor thing is a pet peeve of mine. Just clarifying that there's more than enough information about this.

 

[OntarioHunter]

What exactly are you so suspicious of? Do you think it's even a debate that raptors are dying of lead poisoning? Someone with "a significant post secondary biology background" surely can find their way over to google scholar and read the studies themselves. Just to be safe though

"Experimental dosing of five bald eagles with 10 to
156 lead shot resulted in mortality of all birds in 10 to
133 days, with a loss in body weight of 16-23% (7).
Lead concentrations above 5.0 mg/kg w/w in the
kidney and above 10 ppm w/w in liver were suggested
as indicators of acute exposure to lead"

from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1480957/pdf/canvetj00063-0046.pdf

I can link plenty more if you'd like. My concern is not the specific amount required for poisoning, but moreso the prevalence of elevated lead levels and lead poisoning in raptors in the wild currently.

There ya go! 10 to 156 lead shot is not very specific but I submit that even ten pellets of #7.5 shot will weigh a lot more than 1.26 grains! I am certainly NOT skeptical that lead shot kills raptors and if you've followed my past threads you'd see I have long advocated shifting to non toxic shot for everything. I just don't care for distorting the facts to support it. Not necessary. Does more harm than good.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Raptors don't hang onto lead like waterfowl because they don't have a gizzard. That lethal dose you quoted seems awful low for something that will pass through such a huge bird relatively quickly. I'd like to see the science behind that. Did they feed some captive eagles lead to see how much they can take? Very doubtful.

False. It can remain in the body for days, weeks, or longer. Depends on many variables. There are many studies on lead persistence in the GI. Contrary to popular opinion, persistence in waterfowl doesn't even primarily occur in the gizzard. It passes through the gizzard, then sits in the GI. This is the same thing that occurs in raptors. I don't know where people come up with this claim that lead can't persist in GI tracts. It is very apparent on x-ray, and very easy to follow it's persistence via x-rays and necrospy. This is a basic concept and extremely well understood at this point. We had this figured out by the 70's:

Bates, F. Y., D. M. Barnes, and J. M. Higbee. 1968. Lead toxicosis in mallard ducks. Journal of Wildlife Diseases 4:116–125. Google it.